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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 1351 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will just come in on that point, because it is important. I remember meeting with an organisation in my constituency; there were parents there with children who had gone through that experience. Those children are now in their 20s or 30s, and the trauma is still there. We talk about the need for the bill—the trauma is still there 10, 15 or 20 years later, for a lot of the parents and obviously for the children themselves. That is a really important point.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Sarah Leitch?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Thank you, convener.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

My apologies for being late, convener—I was stuck in an accident this morning.

Some of the debate has been around disabled pupils and pupils with complex needs, and those who are care experienced. Is the balance right in the bill, or should there be more specific guidance on specific aspects—for example, relating to those with care experience?

As members, we have probably all dealt with casework on these issues and heard parents talking about them. In your view, should there be specific guidance on the different areas where restraint and seclusion might be applicable?

I will come to Kate Sanger first, as I know that she has particular expertise in this area. Kate, what are your thoughts on that point?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will go to Simon Webster next—I will come to Suzi Martin in a minute.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

You have already kind of answered my next question, which Willie Rennie also touched on. What do you think of the current Government guidance? What do you think about having statutory guidance? Do you want to add anything to what was said when he asked about that? I think that Suzi answered the question, so I ask Kate and Simon where they think that the guidance should sit and whether they have anything else to add about guidance becoming statutory.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will ask about the definition of a child. The definition in the bill is taken from the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, which is not the same as the definition in the UNCRC. The commissioner and others have suggested that the bill should mirror the UNCRC. What are the practical and legal impacts of those different definitions?

I have a second question, which is on an issue that we have touched on and which I will put to Nicola Killean first. What are the strengths and weaknesses of having statutory guidance rather than non-statutory guidance?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Ben Higgins, I come to you on those two questions on guidance and on the UNCRC definition.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

That is a good point, and it has got me thinking of another question. Kate Sanger talked about the level of expertise in schools, and about training. I am in East Lothian, where we have a number of schools in a geographically tight area. Some schools have an area of expertise that means that kids from all over East Lothian go there and the teachers also get more training. It is important to get a balance between what is provided at local authority level and what happens in each individual town, because parents and children might have to travel. Suzi, what are your thoughts on that?

Kate spoke about focusing on training, but are we spreading that too thinly? Should we try to have specific schools that have expertise in dealing with kids who have learning disabilities until that training is in place? I ask Kate and Suzi for their thoughts on that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I am not sure how to follow that.

I have a more general question about the UNCRC, which Lynne O’Brien touched on. Several respondents have commented on the drafting of sections 1 and 2, on aftercare, and section 10, on the register of foster carers, which amend the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. As that is pre-devolution UK legislation, it falls outwith the scope of the UNCRC.

What are your views on that small but important point? Significant issues could be created if we do not get that aspect right. I will come to Lynne first, as she raised the issue.