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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 1235 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

Those are good questions. It is a framework bill, but it is key that prevention duties and measures are already in place and we are building on them. For example, through the proposal to extend the period of assistance from two to six months, we are trying to reinforce the assistance that is given. The process of addressing a person’s homelessness does not normally involve only one body—it probably involves a number of bodies—so it is about how we ensure that flow-through from one body to another is there, because that is important.

Part of the work that we will undertake this summer is on engaging and talking about the statutory guidance and training that will be required. Pamela McBride touched on what we are planning to do this summer and on what that will look like. That work will feed back when we are at the next level. I am comfortable with continuing to discuss with the committee when it sees guidance and performs scrutiny. It is up to the committee to decide when it does that. I have no problem with coming back after the summer to discuss that.

As to whether I am open minded about looking at what will come from that process after the summer and at what will be in the bill, I am. I will need to speak to colleagues about that, and it depends on what feedback and guidance we get from the statutory bodies and key stakeholders during the summer. In its evidence, the Association of Local Authority Chief Housing Officers said the same thing about what should be in the framework bill. I am open minded about that, and I am happy to come back to the committee at any stage to confirm or reassure it on when scrutiny will take place.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

I have had individual discussions with ALACHO about that. It comes back to the point that Kevin Stewart made. First, there is the legislation and, secondly, there is changing the culture. The important part is changing the culture. That applies not only to this legislation. Any legislation can change how we act legally, but sometimes what is needed is a culture change. The point that Mr Stewart made about culture is very important, and part of that will be guided—

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

Monitoring processes are already in place. We have had key discussions with the Scottish Housing Regulator in that regard and will continue to do so as the bill develops. I am happy to come back to the committee with more specifics on that point, because discussions are continuing on that, as the role of the regulator is important.

I am also happy to come back to the committee to speak more specifically about the scrutiny of the legislation, at a stage that you think would be relevant. That is not a problem.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

There is a homelessness prevention and strategy group, which is co-chaired by COSLA and me. We talk to all the major stakeholders regularly, and they have input into the work of that group. The group can feed back and review this. We are working closely with COSLA on the detail and what it will look like.

We have undertaken work already, and we will continue to do so. Local authorities and other groups feed into that process. The further we get into the process, obviously, that will develop further. However, as I said, we work closely with COSLA on what resourcing will look like and about homelessness prevention overall. As we get further into detail—during the summer engagement, for example—we will start discussing what it will look like. We have reached out to local authorities and asked them for their assessments, which is what the financial memorandum was based on. We will continue to engage with COSLA and other stakeholders on that point. You are right that the bill has to be resourced; it is as simple as that. If it is not, it defeats the purpose of the bill. It has to be resourced properly.

We have engaged extensively with COSLA on that, and we will continue to do so. As I said, COSLA and I chair the homelessness prevention and strategy group, which has the major stakeholders involved in it.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

I think that we touched on this earlier. Obviously, there are existing regulatory processes in place, but you are right that one of the key things—as Bob Doris mentioned—is the question of how we monitor them. We are in discussions with the Scottish Housing Regulator on what that might look like, and I am happy to write to the committee in more detail on the issue. It is right that, if we bring in this legislation, the committee or whoever should receive reports on how successful it has been.

Pamela McBride can say more about the discussions with the regulator.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

When we surveyed local authorities, we asked them to be as open and honest as they could be about that. That survey was conducted and concluded last December, and the information that we have is based on what was sent in. One of the key things with developing the statutory guidance and the training will be the cost, and we have talked about co-ordination and what will be required in that regard.

I suppose that the challenge to local authorities—which have quite rightly challenged me, too—is to say what that will actually look like once we get into the detail of the bill. I should also say that the financial memorandum was based on the information that we got back from local authorities. I will continue to work with COSLA on the homelessness prevention and strategy group, which I chair with Councillor Chalmers. We will continue to develop these matters, and if we need to look at the financial memorandum again and amend it, we will do so. That issue will be covered in our detailed discussions.

I say again that we based the financial memorandum on the survey information that we got back from local authorities, and, if we need to review it as the bill develops, we will do so.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

Our decision will be based on the discussions that we will have over the summer. I will discuss the matter with officials. Pamela McBride might want to come in on that point, as she did a lot of work on the survey, but, as I have said, we based the financial memorandum on the information that we got from local authorities. If this is what local authorities need, we will continue to discuss the issue with COSLA.

You are right that it does us no service if we cannot resource this—it will just worsen the situation, to be quite honest with you. We have based the financial memorandum on what we have been told, but, as we move further into the bill process, we will continue to monitor the matter and, if we need to change it, we will do so. We would need to discuss that with officials at the relevant time, because if we needed to amend it, we would want to do so at the best time to ensure that we were not having to amend it again another three months down the line. That is important.

Pamela McBride might want to touch on the work that we did and the survey.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

Yes, I am happy to do so and to write to the committee on the matter. We have touched, broadly, on the kind of things that we will be looking at—for example, sequencing; the training and guidance that will be required; and co-ordination, which I think has been mentioned. I think that Katy Clark asked for this, too, but I am happy to come back to the committee after the summer if you want to have a quick evidence session on what we have learned from our engagement.

As I have said, I am happy to write to the committee on Mr Stewart’s point, but sequencing, resourcing, training and co-ordination will be the main things that we will discuss with stakeholders over that time. As, I think, Mr Stewart mentioned, we have already had extensive discussions with COSLA, Crisis, the Cyrenians, Shelter and other organisations, and officials meet those groups on a daily basis.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

I think that the legal frameworks are different. I had a meeting with the Scottish Association of Landlords this week, and that was one of the issues that came up. The association is doing a lot of work. You are talking about individual owners as well as landlords who own five or 10 properties, so trying to embed that into the system is much more difficult. However, the association is keen to work with us on that particular point, and we will continue to work with it on that. It will provide guidance for its members in relation to that work in conjunction with us, but it becomes more difficult when you are dealing with individual owners. However, as I said, the association is keen to work with us on that and develop it. The private rented sector is a really important sector, but it cannot be exempt from the work that needs to be done, particularly around domestic abuse.

More generally, that work becomes important with regard to joint tenancies. The issues around joint tenancies can be quite difficult—for example, if someone is looking to move away. In the work that we are doing on domestic abuse, we are also talking about the joint tenancies part of things. Again, we are working very closely with the association on that and we discussed that with it during the week. It is developing guidelines and working with us, and it recognises that it needs to address that.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Housing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 27 June 2024

Paul McLennan

I will bring in Pamela McBride in a second, because I have not done a lot of work on that.

There are probably two ways in which that assessment has been presented and there are two different versions. One is the easy-read one for the public and there is also some more detailed information. It has taken a little bit longer than we thought it would take, so I apologise for that. There is some other information that will come out about that particular point.

One of the key things that Homeless Network Scotland said is that equalities goes all the way through that—we have touched on the issue of equalities in domestic abuse. That will always be the case. As we develop that work over the summer, that must and always will be there.

I will bring Pamela in to talk about the work that has been done on that particular point and what is likely to be done in the next few weeks.