Seòmar agus comataidhean

We are talking about social landlords, but we have also had discussions with the private rented sector. As members will know, hundreds of thousands of landlords are involved in the PRS, so we have met the Scottish Association of Landlords to discuss its approach and it is aware of what it needs to look at. Discussions are on-going with the broader PRS when it comes to individual landlords or landlords who have a small number of properties. However, again, we are focusing and working on that with SAL, and it knows that it needs to develop that approach.

There are a few things to say on that. The legislation itself sets out what it means to ask and to act with regard to those duties. Acting is about working just where the person is now. We had a chat with the national health service, and examples such as yours were one of the things that were raised.

One of the key things that we have to do with our NHS is talk about training and guidance. What that looks like is incredibly important, so we will continue to work on that with the NHS and with different bodies within it. It is an on-going process. When we spoke to stakeholders involved in it, the need to have the training and guidance was one of the key points that they made. During the meeting with the NHS, we talked about those discussions, what that training and guidance will look like and how we will build upon that.

Obviously, the act duty involves working with key partners. I mentioned the holistic approach, too. We obviously need to make sure that there is a process in place so that we know what that actually looks like. In that way, if someone who is in that situation comes in, people will know how to act on that. They need to ask the proper questions about whether there is a risk of homelessness, but what does the person who is acting need to do beyond that?

The training and guidance are incredibly important on that point, but—

I will bring in Catriona MacKean on that particular point, but you are right about best practice. Cyrenians does very well in the area of hospital outreach. We want to build on good practice and on the work that it has done, so we have met Cyrenians to build on what is already being done. That is really important. We have also been speaking to the change teams, who have experience in the healthcare sector, to build on what they are doing.

You are right that this is not about reinventing the wheel. Like me, you were previously a councillor, so you will know that people become homeless in different situations and have different experiences—some experiences are really good and others are not as good as they should be. The prevention duty is an attempt to build on what is already there. It is important to learn from Cyrenians and from the change teams and to build on that. When we spoke to NHS teams, one of the key things that they told us was about building on the protocols. This is not about starting anew. We are building on existing good practice and protocols.

I will ask Catriona MacKean to talk about the particular case that you mentioned. If she cannot, I will get back to you on that point. You are right that this is about building on existing good practice to ensure that people have a much more uniform experience that is better than it has been previously.

I have mentioned the change teams, who have direct experience of what you are asking about and are there at the start of the process. There were also the task and finish groups, which included people with lived experience.

We are very much listening to people with lived experience. Indeed, that is the most important part. Yes, we are asking about the legal duties on the NHS, the Scottish Prison Service and others, but this is all about whether we are providing the service that is needed for people who are at risk of homelessness.

I come back to the point that, previously, there was a mixed approach. If someone had the necessary training or guidance, the procedure would be in place and people would be dealt with earlier—but it was all dependent on that. We are trying to give legal certainty to the likes of the NHS and the Scottish Prison Service, but we are also looking at the training and guidance aspects and are working in partnership with those organisations to ensure that our reach goes as far as it can, that people get identified at an early stage and that the organisations ask and act, as part of their duties, and then pass people on, whether through referrals or whatever.

All of this has been happening very much through the change teams and through working with the likes of Cyrenians, which deals with such issues, too. We are taking into account lived experience, as it is incredibly important.

First, on whether I plan to engage, my answer is yes. That is incredibly important. As I said, there is an event in October, and I will plan to have meetings before or slightly after that. I know that you have referred to this issue before, Mr Doris, so I am happy to do that.

As you know, we cannot compel the DWP to do anything, but we can discuss how we can work more closely with it, as we engage with the NHS, the Scottish Prison Service and so on. I will meet those organisations to discuss such issues in more detail. We cannot compel them, but we might be able to discuss the possibility of a concordat, as you mentioned, with the DWP. Until we have such a discussion, it is hard to see what might evolve from it, but we will certainly look to engage with not just the organisations that are named in the legislation but those that are outwith it.

I know that there have been discussions at official level, but I intend to meet those organisations. Does Catriona MacKean or Matt Howarth want to add anything about the discussions that we have had so far?

That is an important point, and I know that you have mentioned it previously. One of the key things is the national approach to what we are trying to do. Each local authority that I have spoken to is asking about the circumstances in its area. You are right that a rural setting can be very different.

Just last week, we met 140 people who are involved in the social housing sector, and that point was picked up. It comes down to how we build local engagement. We have to deal with the issues in rural communities as well as those in urban Glasgow and Edinburgh, and those are different settings altogether.

One of the key things is to build on the legislation, because we are not coming from a standing start. Prevention work has already been undertaken, but we now need to build on that and identify the gaps.

At the event in October, we will look to build on the holistic approach that we need to take. That is key. Again, as you know, there are different circumstances in different areas, with people having different levels of understanding of what their duties should be. We need to identify the gaps and take a more holistic approach. The online event in October will give us the opportunity to start talking about what we need to do and join things together.

Another key point is that there is a role for local authorities in talking about the community planning approach. That is not part of the bill as such, but it is important that local authorities consider the community planning element. That is a much more holistic approach. Having chaired a community planning team previously, I know that it is really important that we make sure that services in different areas are linked up.

The process will be on-going. We need to identify the gaps and make sure that each local authority is dealing with the issue by taking as holistic an approach as they can. It is about building on that. That was mentioned in our discussions with the 140 practitioners, for example. We need to build on those close relationships. Having a legal duty to do so will bring them closer together, but we need to build on that.

The legislation will come in, but that will not be the end of the process. The situation will continue to evolve. As we have talked about, evaluation and monitoring are key, and we will be speaking to the regulator about how we build on that. It is an on-going process. It is key that we identify the gaps, try to close them and make the system as holistic as possible.

It is key that—this goes back to the point that Mr Balfour made—when the legislation is in place, it is properly resourced. It is clear that one of the issues is to do with identifying where the bottleneck is. In producing the financial memorandum, we asked local authorities to give their best estimates at the time, and the financial memorandum was based on those. As we get into further engagement, one of the key things will be to identify what the actual resource requirement is. Mr Balfour mentioned Edinburgh as an example. If members have identified particular circumstances or local authorities in that regard, they can feed them in to the team and we can pick up those issues.

We need to ensure that the legislation is properly resourced. It has been proven that money that is spent on prevention saves us money down the line, so it is key that we resource the legislation properly. We also need to identify the bottlenecks. The position in a rural area could be different from the position in other areas, and the Borders has completely different circumstances from the Highlands. Some areas might have similar experiences, but it is important to identify that. The more engagement we have with local authorities and the deeper our understanding of that is, the better. First, it will prevent people from becoming homeless. Secondly, it is a spend-to-save initiative, because it will prevent people from going through the process. The resourcing is incredibly important.

I would not say instructed, because one of the key things—whether it is about health and social care or the Scottish Prison Service—is working with them as partners. It is about learning from the lived experience of people who have had to go through the Scottish Prison Service or the NHS. It is very much about co-design and co-production. You were keen to talk about that in relation to the national care service. For me, building that together and building on best practice is the really important part of it, and we meet the Scottish Prison Service regularly to do that.

The challenge within the organisation is to build on the culture that is already there. The Prison Service is really keen to build on that and work as partners and it has been speaking to us not just about what it does within its organisation, but about how it can work closely with, for example, the NHS. It is very much about co-design and co-production.

Yes. I meet the SFHA regularly to discuss a number of issues. When I met the housing associations in Easterhouse a couple of weeks ago, they talked about their roles in development and wider involvement in the community. They talked about their role in providing advice, and domestic abuse was an area that they picked up. We are engaging with them to try to maximise what already happens in their work—for example, with Glasgow City Council. The work of housing associations is one example, but there are also organisations such as the Wheatley Group, which has more resource and income and is working very closely on what will come through under the bill.

It is very much about trying to get a uniform approach. How do we make sure that the smaller housing associations have the necessary training? The SFHA has said that some housing associations are trying to pool some of their resources round around the domestic abuse part, because that is really important.

For a lot of housing associations, that is relatively new. However, it very much came across from the SFHA that it is really keen to make sure that it plays its part. I will continue to discuss that with the SFHA. As I said, it is easier for the likes of the Wheatley Group, for example, which has the resource to do that, but we are very much looking at pooling teams in order to provide that.

I visited four Borders registered social landlords that work closely together on the domestic abuse advice that they give. This is very much about building on that work. I do not want to say that this is new work, because they have been working on it, but they are all keen to focus on it. Therefore, it is about looking at how we can maximise the resource that they have for that. There are good examples such as those Borders housing associations, which work closely together to ensure that they pass on information.

It was a similar situation with CIH and the discussions that I have had with CIH about the training that is required in the housing sector itself. It had mentioned and discussed training on domestic abuse. Those discussions are on-going in CIH and the whole housing sector in order to build that up.

That builds on what we already have, because the NHS obviously operates with the local council at a particular time. I have seen cases where that has happened—for example, in work with the Simon Community to pass on cases. Therefore, that process already exists and this is building on that. It is not the case that that process does not exist at the moment.

The key thing, then, is to find out whether there is somebody who can come in and identify the homelessness. This is all about making sure that there is a procedure in place to deal with that, so we are building on what we already have in that regard.

At our meeting with the NHS last week, that is exactly what we talked about—the guidance and training on that particular point. These are existing procedures that we are trying to build on—in other words, this already happens—so we are not just starting this process now. That is the key thing. We have that feedback from people with lived experience, so the process is about making sure that the nurse or whoever is there is aware of the prevention duties. By that, I mean whether they are identifying that a person is at risk of homelessness on that particular night, knows whom they need to speak to about that and acts on that. It is not just a case of passing it on to the local authority.

Catriona MacKean might want to add something on that point.