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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 1351 contributions

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Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

More generally, I know that the issue has been raised in the committee and in the Parliament before. On the back of the statement on the Grenfell tower inquiry, there is much broader awareness of that. We contract with companies as part of the Government-led process. We have 13 SBAs in process just now.

I have asked the question, as have many others, and we have not been made aware of any issues in companies’ capacity to participate, but we will continue to monitor that as part of the cladding remediation process. As part of the broader process, SBAs are going ahead. It is a UK-wide issue, so UK companies are dealing with that as well.

10:45  

I ask Stephen Garvin to talk about the broader issue around SBAs and fire engineers. I might ask Alan Johnston to comment on the more specific cladding issues. I note that those two aspects cannot be separated.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

There are a number of points in that. I come back to the point that the Acting Minister for Climate Action made. I recently visited Granton, where there is a mixed tenure development and the heating system is built in to the development itself. The Government is committed to doing that in future.

Retrofitting is an important part of what local authorities—and the Government—look at in relation to their outlook for investment. It is important to invest in retrofitting, repairs and new housing. There is no doubt in my mind that we need to follow the retrofitting agenda. I know that there has been debate about that in other Parliaments, but there is no doubt that we need to do it as soon as we can to make sure that we are tackling climate change.

The Acting Minister for Climate Action updated the Parliament on the Government’s intention to introduce a heat in buildings bill to make provision for all homes and buildings to move to clean heating systems by the end of 2045. It is right to do that. Even though that is about 20 years away, it gives incentives to investors.

As I previously told the committee, the estimated cost is about £30 billion and it would provide about 20,000 jobs. The cost of construction has probably pushed that estimate much higher than it was a year or so ago. We always need investment to come in to the sector.

From speaking to local authorities and other social landlords, I know that that is an important part of their considerations about whether they invest in repairs, new properties or retrofitting. The mixed tenure approach is also important in terms of discussions about how they can invest. I had the pleasure of visiting Wester Hailes to talk about the success of the area-based schemes. When I visited Wester Hailes, I saw the improvement that that had made in a number of properties with mixed tenure. Half a billion pounds has been spent on that project.

We are looking at different proposals for working with the City of Edinburgh Council on heat networks. Local authorities had to send in their local heat and energy efficiency strategies—LHEES—and now we are looking at implementation plans. There are several different approaches, but they have to take in a mixed tenure approach.

We must remain committed to changing the heating systems by the end of 2045. Different local authorities have different approaches. That is why it was important that the LHEES were picked up on, because they allow a little bit of local flexibility. It is important that we make sure—particularly considering the size and scale of Edinburgh and the mixed tenures in it—that there are different approaches that we can take. We are working closely with the council, as is the Acting Minister for Climate Action and other colleagues.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

There are a number of places, and Home Energy Scotland is one of them. Local authorities also have a role in that regard. We can have an LHEES implementation plan and a strategy, but a key point is how we get that message out. We are talking about developing technologies in the next 15 or 20 years. How do we ensure that home owners, social landlords, private landlords and private tenants are aware of them? Local authorities play an important part in that. People should be aware of energy advice, whether from local authorities or from the Government. It has to tie into the LHEES strategy and what that looks like. We talked about the approach that is taken in Edinburgh; other parts of Scotland take different approaches. It is about making people aware of that.

The specific approach in Wester Hailes focused on discussing with home owners, social landlords, Edinburgh council, or people who had bought their houses. The important part was speaking specifically to tenants—that was helpful—and making them aware of their options, whether the property was privately owned or owned by the council.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

Yes, and you and I had a brief discussion about that. It was discussed at the event and various proposals are being developed in the sector and I am sure that the Government will pick up on that. I am happy to take that point away and raise it with colleagues.

I had an interest in solar thermal when I met Solar Energy Scotland prior to becoming minister. The technology has changed and the payback time has reduced. There are different forms of solar energy and different ways in which it can help to tackle climate change. The sector will continue to develop. One of the key things for me going forward is to make sure that we are flexible enough to engage with different technologies as they move on in the next five, 10, 15 and 20 years, whether that be for retrofitting or for new properties being built. We have seen how much technology has changed in the past five years.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

Yes, I can. I will bring in Stephen Garvin in a second to talk about this in a bit more detail, but I have already mentioned that the Institution of Structural Engineers—that is its long name—is looking at developing additional guidance specific to the issue of RAAC in housing. Moreover, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors is preparing a consumer guide that will provide advice to landlords, tenants and home owners, and that guide is expected shortly. The Institution of Structural Engineers is also preparing guidance to support landlords, tenants and home owners in making informed decisions on how they manage RAAC in residential properties, and that work is due to be completed later in the year.

We are engaging and liaising with RICS and IStructE in supporting those initiatives, and we are having on-going engagement with affected landlords through the Scottish Government-led RAAC in housing sub-group, which Stephen Garvin has touched on. I will bring in Stephen, as he is involved much more than I am in those discussions.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

I will bring in Alan Johnston to respond to that question, but I have a response to it, too.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

The Grenfell response has come out, but there is work beyond that. I am happy to keep the committee up to date, if members think that that would be relevant.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

I will bring in Stephen Garvin on the other point, which is the most important to come out of the Grenfell inquiry.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

Before Alan comes in, it is important to note the broader concept of fire engineers’ work in relation to Grenfell.

I ask Alan to cover the specific work that we are engaging on, because SBAs are about more than just fire engineering.

Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee [Draft]

Building Safety and Maintenance

Meeting date: 22 April 2025

Paul McLennan

The Government is committed to implementing Awaab’s law for private tenants as well. There are existing powers, which we must ensure are used to the maximum extent. It is part of the engagement with the private rented sector. I have raised the issue with the Scottish Association of Landlords on a number of occasions, so it is aware of our commitment in that regard, and we will engage with the organisation.

I am happy to come back on the two points relating to social housing and to the private rented sector, but we are committed to having Awaab’s law for the private rented sector as well.