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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 February 2026
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Displaying 1418 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

My apologies for being late, convener—I was stuck in an accident this morning.

Some of the debate has been around disabled pupils and pupils with complex needs, and those who are care experienced. Is the balance right in the bill, or should there be more specific guidance on specific aspects—for example, relating to those with care experience?

As members, we have probably all dealt with casework on these issues and heard parents talking about them. In your view, should there be specific guidance on the different areas where restraint and seclusion might be applicable?

I will come to Kate Sanger first, as I know that she has particular expertise in this area. Kate, what are your thoughts on that point?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will go to Simon Webster next—I will come to Suzi Martin in a minute.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

You have already kind of answered my next question, which Willie Rennie also touched on. What do you think of the current Government guidance? What do you think about having statutory guidance? Do you want to add anything to what was said when he asked about that? I think that Suzi answered the question, so I ask Kate and Simon where they think that the guidance should sit and whether they have anything else to add about guidance becoming statutory.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will ask about the definition of a child. The definition in the bill is taken from the Education (Scotland) Act 1980, which is not the same as the definition in the UNCRC. The commissioner and others have suggested that the bill should mirror the UNCRC. What are the practical and legal impacts of those different definitions?

I have a second question, which is on an issue that we have touched on and which I will put to Nicola Killean first. What are the strengths and weaknesses of having statutory guidance rather than non-statutory guidance?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Ben Higgins, I come to you on those two questions on guidance and on the UNCRC definition.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Restraint and Seclusion in Schools (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Paul McLennan

That is a good point, and it has got me thinking of another question. Kate Sanger talked about the level of expertise in schools, and about training. I am in East Lothian, where we have a number of schools in a geographically tight area. Some schools have an area of expertise that means that kids from all over East Lothian go there and the teachers also get more training. It is important to get a balance between what is provided at local authority level and what happens in each individual town, because parents and children might have to travel. Suzi, what are your thoughts on that?

Kate spoke about focusing on training, but are we spreading that too thinly? Should we try to have specific schools that have expertise in dealing with kids who have learning disabilities until that training is in place? I ask Kate and Suzi for their thoughts on that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Paul McLennan

I will move on, and I will ask Duncan Dunlop to respond to this question first. Some of the submissions to the committee said that there needs to be clarity on the bill’s proposal for guidance in relation to care experience to ensure that it is effective. You touched on that earlier. There was also a range of views about who should be included in any proposed definition.

How can the Scottish Government ensure that the provisions have a positive impact on care-experienced people, and how do you suggest work to decide on a definition—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Duncan Dunlop has mentioned advocacy and Jo Derrick has spoken about aftercare, and both have made important points. I previously used an example of kids who are about 15 or 16 who were ready for the transition. They had issues with housing and concerns about what their next step in life would be, and very little support was provided. Getting that start in life could have made a huge impact on them.

There is another question about geographical differences. The care that someone will be provided will be very different in rural Aberdeenshire or the Highlands and Islands compared to urban Glasgow and Edinburgh. We have not really discussed that, but we need to ensure that the level of care, support and advocacy is not impacted by geography.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Paul McLennan

My question is on some general points. Who Cares? Scotland, The Promise Scotland and the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland commented on the drafting of sections 1 and 2, on aftercare. Laura Pasternak, you mentioned that issue, as well as the issue of section 10’s amendment of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 in relation to the register of foster carers. Of course, the 1995 act is pre-devolution UK legislation that falls outwith the scope of the UNCRC, as you noted. What are your views on how that section has been drafted, and what might be done at stage 2 to bring it into scope?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 September 2025

Paul McLennan

Jo, do you have any views on the point about the UNCRC in the context of aftercare?