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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 10 May 2025
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Displaying 1523 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Thank you. I would like to finish off with Professor Flinders, since he was cut off in his prime, as it were. Throughout this whole conversation is the theme of maturity, whether it is about how we deal with risk, innovation, complexity or power. Do you have any final thoughts or reflections on what you have heard thus far? This is the academic side of decision making.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Do you have any bright ideas on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Thank you for that. I am laughing slightly, given that we are operating in a political environment.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

I do not disagree about any of the principles, but the devil will be in the detail. What I am looking for are your assurances that the multi-agency meetings will put an equivalent level of attention on the costs and the savings, which you have outlined, as they will on driving forward the policy. The last thing that you, as a new minister in post—and I appreciate that you are talking about something on which you have had no say—would want is for this to be subject to considerable cost overruns because the things that are missing from the FM are missing because they are complex and difficult and you do not have policy detail.

I suppose that I am looking for assurances, because some people think that the funding is quite dull compared with the policy; however, if you think that, you are taking a risk, and I would not want to see you do that. I am simply looking for your assurances that you will pass that on to the people who are supporting you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. I will ask Professor Flinders a couple of questions from an academic perspective.

09:45  

Your submission makes comments about culture, behaviour, avoiding groupthink, confirmation bias, and so on. You also point out that there is a need for critical friends. How is that limited when power—for instance, over someone’s job, career or their future line of funding, in instances where third sector organisations rely on Government—comes into play? What are your general thoughts about how prevalent that is and how commonly it is understood as a risk in the public sector?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

That is helpful. The middle-road approach to continuous improvement that academia brings is worth the committee exploring further when we look at comparables in Scotland. I know that Sophie Howe wants to come in on my earlier point, then I will head back to Professor Flinders.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

We cannot see you, but we can hear you clearly.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 2 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Okay. I get what you are saying about the scale of representation, and you make that point clear in your submission.

Have there been times when, in terms of line of sight of funding, you have felt that you or any of the organisations that you represent have been required to give what you might see as the right answer or the preferred answer because of the mechanism of funding and fears or uncertainty over that? Is that a general concern or a fear that you hold?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 2 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

Do you think that, in general, the Scottish Government wants a critical friend or is that a statement that it uses but that is a kind of esoteric desire? There is a difference between the two.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 2 May 2023

Michelle Thomson

That was serendipity, Lucy, because I intended to bring you in on the thread of trust, power and decision making, as I have specific questions about your very fulsome submission, which I appreciate was submitted on behalf of Scottish Women’s Aid, Close the Gap and Engender.

However, just to finish the point about how there could be a subliminal effect on bringing thoughts or decision making to the table, I want to ask about something contentious. When Parliament had its big debate about the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, I was surprised to find that no qualitative impact assessment had been done, over a period of six years, on the impact on women who had been raped or sexually assaulted by those with fully intact male genitalia in what they would consider to be safe spaces. I make no comment on the rights or wrongs of that—or on any of that debate—and instead I am exploring it from a decision-making point of view, because it is surprising that no qualitative impact assessment was done in six years.

My question to you and all the other witnesses is whether you have sought qualitative assessments in decision making. You mentioned equality impact assessments. Did you seek those and were you discouraged, or did you not seek them? How did that come about during a period of six years? I appreciate that you might not have been at Engender for six years, but I am interested in that, because it framed a decision-making process.