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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 May 2025
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Displaying 1523 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

But this committee will not have the chance to scrutinise that legislation. We are gathered as MSPs because—I think that this is fair to say—all of us have some background or experience in finance. I do not think that any of us would claim to be experts, but we have some experience, and we have been selected to represent that. Once legislation goes to general committees, we lose that opportunity.

If we are now agreed that, given that this is a framework bill, we cannot have the confidence that we need in the FM but that there will be further scrutiny, do you share my concerns that that further scrutiny will be much wider? The focus of secondary legislation, by its very definition, will not be exclusively on the costs, although they might be involved. Do you have any worries that that will lead to less control over costs as we go through the parliamentary processes?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

From the FM.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

For the avoidance of doubt, in giving 10, you are saying that the costs that are set out in the FM will be the final costs to the Scottish Government and to taxpayers of implementing the bill’s provisions.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

You are describing a benefit, not a cost.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. Two weeks ago, I asked the witnesses what number, on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is no confidence and 10 is complete confidence, they would give for their confidence in the FM. I ask the same question to you, minister: what number between zero and 10 would you give for your confidence in the FM?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

I understand that. It is basically a phased approach. I saw such an approach a multitude of times in my previous life, and I understand how it works, but I return to the point that we are the finance committee. After you go away today, that is it—unless we ask you to come back with an updated financial memorandum, the matter is away from the committee that has responsibility for ensuring that the costs are understood.

Given that we agree that you are taking a phased approach, how many meetings have you had with the Deputy First Minister to outline the fact that, as we go from year to year, we cannot have any proper sense of what the costs are until we reach a particular point? Does she, in her capacity as finance secretary as well as Deputy First Minister, know that, for the next few years, she will have no idea of the costs of this bill, which we can add to those of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill and the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill? If I were her, I would be quite nervous about that, because, if I were in charge of controlling the costs, I would want to know, or have a good sense of, what was coming down the track. How many meetings have you had with her?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

I absolutely understand that. You are describing an enabling bill—you used the term “framework bill”—and strategic-level costs. I get all of that.

I have a last wee question. How do you know that we will get value for money?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 1 November 2023

Michelle Thomson

COSLA told the committee that costs for

“family support, secure transport costs, and the additional administration and managerial time ... required to support”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 25 October 2023; c 18.]

the children’s hearings process were all excluded from the financial memorandum. Can you update us today with estimated costings for those?