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I will not go into the national performance framework, because I know that there are other areas of consideration there.

I want to pick up on a finding that the committee brought out some months ago that goes back to my questions about appetite. I forget whether it was the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government or the Minister for Public Finance who said this—in fact, I think that it was the former permanent secretary—but it became clear that workforce numbers are the exclusive preserve of the civil servants rather than Government. In other words, the civil servants have the final say on headcount.

I thought that was a very good example of complexity. Government might say, “This is what we wish to do,” but if the civil servants do not wish to deliver that, they are ultimately accountable. I can sense by the look on your face, Mr Sousa, that that is also news to you, but that seems to me to be quite fundamental as an example of why, although Government might set out good plans, it might not be able to deliver. I do not know whether you knew about that, Mr Robinson, but it is an important point that all of us in Parliament should remember.

Yes—except, inevitably, turkeys do not vote for Christmas.

My first question follows the discussion about preventative spend. The tendency of any organisation or Government is always to want to spend money; that is a flat state. Michael Kellet, from your perspective, what consideration has been given to creating a culture in which personal responsibility can be actively considered as a part of prevention while recognising the very real challenges with some health issues?

I have another, general question for everybody. In today’s discussion, we have had what feels like quite a shift, whereby we are more prepared now to think the unthinkable. We had a discussion earlier about universality, and Dave Moxham commented on the Scottish business bonus arguably propping up zombie businesses. That brings me to a challenge for David Livey. Do we have exactly the same thing here, whereby we are, in effect, propping up zombie volunteer organisations that are not focusing fundamentally on their own financial resilience? It is not necessarily their fault, but, over time, it is easier to go for the low-hanging fruit of project funding. The general question is whether we have entered a stage where people—arguably for the first time and subject to the politics and whatnot—are prepared to think a bit differently across the public sector.

Should you be appointed, you can look forward to being asked about that by me in future sessions.

That is slightly different from all your other experiences. What was your interest in that and why, given that it is slightly different?

Does everyone on the panel agree with that?

You have answered the question in relation to process development and iteration, which I alluded to, and that dependency between the two of you, but the other concern that came through from the previous panel was about the percentage versus a flat rate. Do you have anything to add on that? It seems to me from what the previous panel said that significant concerns remain. Are you putting that to one side, given that your job is to focus on the practical implementation? Does anybody else on the panel have anything to add on what still feels like a disconnect, setting aside the operational process things that Elin Williamson has clarified?

In that case, I shall hand over to Daniel Johnson.

Good morning, and welcome to the 23rd meeting in 2025 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. The first item of business on our agenda is the choice of a convener, following the resignation of Colin Smyth.

In accordance with the Parliament’s standing orders, where the office of convener is vacant, the deputy convener—in this case, myself—chairs the meeting for the purpose of choosing a new convener. The Parliament has agreed that only members of the Scottish Labour Party are eligible to be chosen as a convener of this committee. To that end, I nominate Daniel Johnson, sitting to my right, and seek the agreement of the committee for him to be convener. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Good morning. I thank the panel members for joining us. You have given a compelling overview of the challenges that all your businesses are facing. I do not want to labour that point any more, but it is worth briefly reflecting on the macroeconomic picture for the UK. It could be that we are not that far away from a sovereign debt crisis, such is the scale of the challenges. I have a brief question, because I think that you have covered your challenges very well.

What, if anything, is your one biggest fear from the forthcoming UK budget, given the extensively pre-trailed talk of tax rises? In other words, what would be the tipping point to accelerate the situation that you have outlined? I would like a quick, off-the-top-of-your-head response from all of you, please.