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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 1608 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I know that you will, convener. I meant the permanent secretary.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

This is where I am coming from. You mentioned the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, and I think that you recognise that there is an obligation to meet those regulations over and above the Equality Act 2010. You have referred to the fact that those regulations state that there must be “separate” toilet facilities “for men and women” except where each toilet is in a separate room lockable from the inside, and separate changing rooms where needed “for reasons of propriety”.

Are you completely 100 per cent comfortable that you are working within the 1992 regulations? Indeed, it might be useful for us to know how many of the facilities meet the requirements of those regulations, relative to the number of women in the civil service. Are you completely certain that you are meeting the 1992 regulations, which require that each toilet is in a separate room that is lockable from the inside?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

So, the only facilities that provide a reliable alternative to de facto mixed-sex provision are fairly limited, by definition—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Are you reassessing your legal advice just now, in the light of the number of cases that are coming out of public bodies, to ensure that the employment law element of it is absolutely on point? Are you actively doing that at the moment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I see that there is clearly the potential for tension in relation to the elected role of ministers.

You will know that the civil service’s total operating costs have routinely been overspent by around 10 per cent in recent years. If ministers have limited potential to do something about that—it is a dialogue-type situation—but you retain ultimate accountability, that would seem to be a problem.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I have questions relating to the Scottish Government’s responsibilities as an employer and potential exposure to costly legal action. It cannot have escaped your notice that quite a few—the list is piling up—public bodies are falling foul of overreach on gender self-identification, despite that not being the law.

I have a quick yes or no question first. I assume that you have overall responsibility for ensuring that the Scottish Government, as an employer, complies with the law.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

Is it in the public domain that the women’s development network allows men to self-identify as women?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I have actual examples—I could perhaps help you if you cannot think of any. Might you be forgetting about changing rooms and toilets, Lesley, which you referenced? The trans and non-binary equality and inclusion policy, most recently re-issued in 2023, states that

“trans staff should choose to use the facilities they feel most comfortable with”—

in other words, that they self-identify into. Do you accept that that means that any facilities—for example, changing rooms and toilets—that are stated as being for women only in the Scottish Government are therefore, in practice, mixed sex?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

It would be useful to understand the relative weighting in the development of a multitude of EqIAs and how you assess that all protected characteristics are recognised.

I have a final question on a completely different area—before the convener interrupts me. There was quite a spat between you and the Scottish Information Commissioner over FOI 193/2024, which was to do with James Hamilton’s report. I want to assure myself about whether there were any other lingering issues that might come back to bite Joe Griffin in the future. In the light of all the outstanding freedom of information requests, if the Scottish Information Commissioner were here, would he describe himself as content with the status of all the FOIs before you move on from the Scottish Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Michelle Thomson

I just wanted to check, before you move on and Joe Griffin comes in, for his sake, that there are no stink bombs awaiting him in the form of outstanding actions from the Scottish Information Commissioner.