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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 1677 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I go back to your point about the immediacy of the crises from which we are lurching. We have had several: we have had Brexit and Covid and we have a cost of living crisis. In addition, there are the up-front costs, which you clearly pointed out, before we get the benefits—if they are financial benefits. Does that work to inhibit structural change? Does short-termism always win the day, or is the possibility that it wins the day increased?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good afternoon. Thank you for coming along today.

I will ask the Auditor General a question first. In your submission, you said that the resource spending review

“notes that there are ... 129 public bodies in Scotland”.

You quite coyly comment that

“structural reform ... can take time to achieve and generate short-term costs.”

I also note your point about service delivery and outcomes.

With regard to the typical time-cost quality of any change, you have not given any indication of the potential for cost savings. From an audit perspective, how does our having 129 public bodies compare with the situation in other countries? I realise that this is a difficult question, and I accept what you said earlier, but, by head of population or some other appropriate measure, do we have far too many public bodies, and should we have fewer?

16:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Everybody is looking at you, Paul.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Sorry to interrupt. I understand that, but I am trying to understand the basis for your concern that that might change. Surely there could also be potential for a positive outcome. The overarching review has been triggered by your lack of fiscal flexibilities. From your submission, I am not clear why you are concerned or what evidence you are offering to back up that concern. Has there been any indication from the Government that that is the intended way to go? I am not clear about that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

That would be helpful, and I know that you will carefully qualify any data that you provide.

Are you aware of any overlap of outcomes that might lend themselves to consideration for streamlining from an audit perspective? Perhaps I should ask when you last audited the 129 bodies’ effectiveness across the board.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Does either Charlotte Barbour or the Auditor General have anything to add?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

It will be interesting.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

I appreciate that it is difficult.

Susan Murray, you made a comment, with which I agree strongly, about there being

“greater potential for using procurement as a tool to drive change.”

You make a broad suggestion in your submission, but will you give us a wee bit more flavour of your thinking? You simply mention

“standard environmental and social policy criteria”.

Will you give us a few more examples? The suggestion interests me.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 20 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

Arguably, then, you are suggesting that there should be more transparency and that there needs to be linkage to various outcomes.

I do not know whether the Auditor General wants to come in on that point. It strikes me as an interesting area.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Registers of Scotland

Meeting date: 7 September 2022

Michelle Thomson

So it is not actually your customers who have said this. You used the term “customers”, but it is a committee of the Law Society that has suggested that approach rather than the customers at the end of the chain.