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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 August 2025
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Displaying 1691 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Yes.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. We have covered a broad range of areas across the piece. Before I ask a few other questions I want to check whether any of the three remaining panel members feels that there might be questions that we should have put but have not been able to in a session of this breadth. On my screen I can only see the witnesses’ backs, so I ask whoever wishes to go first to do so.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

I have a last wee question, just to bottom that out. A lot of our discussion has summed up the issues that we face at the moment, such as lack of access to labour and problems with capital, and has moved on to the longer-term impact on productivity or the lack of it. That is where the UK scores badly when we look at comparator countries, whether they be small economies or larger advanced ones.

My question to you is: based on all the people with whom you work, do you anticipate a slowdown in investment? That might be investment in automation—which David Thomson brought up earlier—or in more general terms, while, at least in the short period, we will be focusing on getting through what looks likely to be a difficult period or in the longer run because of the wider concerns that are being shared about another decade of austerity. It would be useful to hear your thoughts on that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

This is my last question and is for my own clarity. Will this be the only financial memorandum? Will you break down the detail, associated risks and potential cost overruns, which are what we are concerned about, through the detailed business cases and regular updates to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. My question goes back to the top level. How did we get to this point? I am surprised by the financial memorandum’s complete lack of what I regard as fundamentals. We have covered a number of those issues so far, in this session. I would like to understand why that is the case. I understand that the financial memorandum has to be produced alongside the bill, but how did we end up with an FM that does not even begin to cover the fundamentals? Speaking personally, and based on my experience, which is mostly in business, I say that I have no confidence whatever that the FM represents any level of accuracy or, therefore, of value for money. How did we get here?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Therefore, would the change not be a benefit to those defined benefit schemes, given that the liability lies with the provider? We have massive inflation, and I imagine that a lot of pension schemes are feeling somewhat nervous. To my mind, losing a lot of people would be a benefit from a local council perspective, albeit that I accept that it is a problem for the TUPE scheme. Am I misunderstanding something?

12:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

I used to work in a pensions company, so I am with you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

So, it is policy driven—I understand that. You are correct that the amalgamation of health and social care has been a wish for a long time. However, that different approach has clearly introduced significant other risks, even with apportioning or estimating costs up front. The ranges that you have set out are very wide.

Let me put it this way: if it was your personal money, you would not be risking it. How will you mitigate the risk of there being significant cost overruns in a multitude of areas? My colleagues have mentioned issues with VAT, defined benefit pensions, assets, staff, double running, IT and even uncertainty about the governance of boards. Each one of those issues would introduce additional costs. How will you mitigate the risks in the process that you have adopted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

You make a point that reflects my personal experience, which is that a programme plan is only ever accurate after the programme has finished. That is the standard issue and risk for all the spend. What you are describing makes that more likely, rather than less likely. You are talking about the business cases in the areas that you mentioned earlier, but only at that point will we start, from a financial perspective, to get a sense of the risks to the public purse. There are concerns about parliamentary scrutiny, on which I absolutely back up what my colleague, Mr Mason, said.

I looked in the financial memorandum specifically for the word “risk”. It is mentioned only twice. However, this is screaming out that there are huge risks, to me. It might be that you are under pressure in terms of timescales in which to deliver, but from my perspective of financial scrutiny, I am seeing a blank cheque. That is deeply worrying in respect of the public purse.

If you had had a choice, would you have produced that financial memorandum or would you have wanted more detail and further breakdowns based on the policy provisions? Were you pushed to bring forward the financial memorandum?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 October 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you.