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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 August 2025
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Displaying 1691 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

You have given me a lot of helpful information about what you are doing in your various phases, but I must admit that I am not any clearer on the governance model and who specifically is ultimately accountable for GFIB’s output.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

Okay. Thank you.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. We have touched on some of the themes that I will ask about, in terms of the role and involvement of the local community. Last week, we had some quite compelling evidence from Grangemouth including Skinflats community council, which talked about how the community feels as though it bears the weight of providing all that gross domestic product to the Scottish economy but gets no benefit.

Derek, I think that you said—you referenced Celtic Renewables and so on—that you are already investing in local companies. In terms of your impact assessment vis-à-vis the benefits to the local community, can you talk me through the process that you use? In other words, what did you specifically do to ensure that the benefit was felt in the community? I totally appreciate that you have a wider perspective as well.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

You must have guessed what my next question was going to be, because you alluded to conditionality. I paraphrase, but the sense from the community was that a lot of the activity that was going on was well intentioned in terms of including the community and having a community focus at its heart, but that it lacked substance. What are the circumstances in which you think it would be a good idea to put some conditionality around the funds that you provide? What would that look like and where would you see that working in order to make sure that the community is at the heart of what you do?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

I absolutely understand about the principles of fair work. The discussion that you suggest would be helpful because you are at the coal face and you are monitoring the existing investments. The discussion is about your suggestions for how those principles can be deepened to put the community at the heart of things.

I will turn to SNIB. As you explained, you have not made investments, but how would you, by way of your impact assessment, ensure that the community is at the heart of things? To what extent is there a conflict when, obviously, you are skiting across the top looking at a return on your investment and at your debt to equity ratios and so on? I appreciate that this is in principle, given what you said earlier.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (Grangemouth Area)

Meeting date: 15 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

Tell me a bit more about your involvement. Also, what is your understanding of GFIB’s governance model?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

You point out that, if civil servants were seeking clarity, they would need to know that the issue was considerably more complex than it might initially have appeared. That is part of the challenge in getting value from our inquiry. We need to understand the culture and the extent to which such activity is prevalent. Frankly, given what you said about risk taking, it is easier to just come back with a paper. We are talking about civil servants here, because ministers will take advice and accept advice. The issue is about not just capacity but the skills base among civil servants—you made a comment about being agile earlier—and continual improvement, because this is very difficult.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

There is an idea, linked to empowerment and accountability, which was brought up earlier. When I was reading your report, I thought about the cultural hierarchy within the wider decision framework being underpinned by relative power bases, which vary, depending on the seniority and power base of the relevant minister. That relates to where that minister fits into Government and the power base of whoever is the ultimate accountable authority. It would be useful to hear your general reflections on how that power can inhibit decision making, particularly in a wider context when a decision requires to be made quickly, which, as we know, also affects the processes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

That is an interesting area for wider consideration.

In the committee, we keep quoting Rumsfeld in relation to “unknown unknowns”. With regard to a Government making an honest assessment of its decision-making capabilities, I sense that there is a disconnect. You said that there is relatively little engagement with academics on best practice. To what extent do you consider it a risk that Governments do not know what they do not know? If they do not ask questions and engage with best practice and other methodologies, they will never know what they do not know.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Michelle Thomson

I have a supplementary question. To what extent do the lack of rationality and the uncertainty, as depicted very effectively by your diagram, suggest that we should almost be applying chaos theory to decision making in Government? It is a serious question.