Meeting of the Parliament [Draft]

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 7, 2024

Official Report 793KB pdf

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Business Motion

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Tuesday 7 May 2024—

delete

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill

and insert

followed by Personal Statement: Humza Yousaf

3.00 pm Selection of First Minister

(b) Wednesday 8 May 2024—

delete

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business

and insert

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care;
Social Justice

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Implementing the Cass Review in Scotland

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Supporting Scotland’s Colleges

delete

5.10 pm Decision Time

and insert

5.35 pm Decision Time

(c) Thursday 9 May 2024—

delete

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice

followed by Ministerial Statement: 2024-25 Finance Update Following UK Government Spring Budget

followed by Scottish Government Business

and insert

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Data Protection and Digital Information Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill—[George Adam.]

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move amendment S6M-13118.1.

14:04  

Exactly a week ago, I stood here and asked the Scottish Government, now a minority in the Parliament, to work with others, and I did so to seek just one thing: for us to stay behind by just 30 extra minutes, last Tuesday, to get an urgent statement from the Lord Advocate. Last week, Scottish National Party and Green members voted that down. I hope that, this week, they will support this proposal. This is a genuine request to get an update not just from the head of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service but from a member of the Scottish Government Cabinet.

We last heard from the Lord Advocate in January, when she made a statement to Parliament and was questioned by MSPs. During the statement, she was clear that exonerating everyone—a mass exoneration of everyone who was convicted under the Horizon scandal—was not, in her view, the correct course of action. We are now into May and we do not know whether the Lord Advocate still holds that view or whether her opinion has changed.

We now know that, in just a matter of weeks, this Parliament will be asked, on 21 May, to debate and vote on stage 1 of the Scottish Horizon legislation in Holyrood. The next day, 22 May, we will debate stage 2 as a Committee of the Whole Parliament. How can we go into that important legislative process without knowing the position of the most senior law officer in Scotland?

Last week, when I raised the issue, George Adam said:

“There is no clarity needed. The Scottish Government has repeatedly made clear its position that proposed legislation”—[Official Report, 30 April 2024; c 6.]

on the Horizon scandal will be introduced. What is not clear is whether the Lord Advocate agrees with the Scottish Government’s position. I do not think it too much for this Parliament to ask for the Lord Advocate to come to this chamber to outline her position and answer questions about it.

We know that questions on the issue are due at First Minister’s question time this week. Pauline McNeill has a question on the issue at FMQs.

Will the member take an intervention?

I will give way shortly. That shows how important it is across the parties that we get a response on the issue.

The member will be aware that there was a five-year period in which the suspicions about the Horizon system were known. He will also be aware that no victims were contacted who had previously been prosecuted. Does the member agree that, given its actions, the Crown Office, which should have known through the Second Sight Investigations report that there were system flaws, should be fully accountable to this Parliament?

Labour is happy to support the amendment to the business motion.

I very much welcome the support from Pauline McNeill and the support that we got from Labour and the Liberal Democrats last week. I will be listening with interest to her question and the responses on Thursday.

Is it really too much to ask for this Parliament to sit for an additional 30 minutes tonight? Indeed, I think that we might even finish early this evening. Is 30 minutes too much to ask to allow sub-postmasters in our constituencies and regions across Scotland to hear from the Lord Advocate on whether she still does not believe that mass exoneration is the right approach or whether she thinks that that is now the correct approach and has advised so in relation to the legislation that is coming up in just a couple of weeks?

I am encouraged that the SNP wants to work across the political spectrum. I was disappointed seven days ago that it voted down my reasonable amendment to the business motion. I hope that the SNP will reconsider today, and that it will vote with other parties in this Parliament to hear from the Lord Advocate, to allow that scrutiny from Parliament and, importantly, to give the answers that our sub-postmasters not only need but absolutely deserve.

I move amendment S6M-13118.1, after “3.00 pm Selection of First Minister” to insert:

“followed by Statement by the Lord Advocate on Post Office Horizon Prosecutions

delete

5.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

5.30 pm Decision Time”.

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

14:08  

As I said last week, the most important people in this are the families and those who suffered because of the decisions that the Post Office made. That is who we must all think of when we are dealing with the issue. I mentioned last week that that is the reason why we are introducing legislation, so that we can ensure that they have that protection and that they know that the horror of what has happened to them has come to an end.

The Parliamentary Bureau is aware that important protocols must be followed in relation to the introduction of legislation. Following the period of pre-introduction scrutiny, the bill is expected to be introduced on 14 May and published by Parliament on 15 May. Current expectations are that stage 1 will be on 21 May and that stage 2 will be on 22 May. That will allow MSPs the opportunity to see the terms of the Scottish bill ahead of stage 1, and there will be the process that Mr Ross mentioned.

Given that that important process is now just a matter of weeks away, can the minister confirm that the Parliament will hear from the Lord Advocate, for the first time since January, before the bill is introduced, to allow us to understand whether she still believes that there should be no mass exoneration of sub-postmasters or whether she has changed her mind?

I appreciate Mr Ross’s tone this week. Once again, we have to think of the families outside the Parliament who are dealing with this issue. They want to know that we will create legislation that will make a difference and a change by bringing to an end some of the issues.

Stage 3 of the bill will follow as soon as the United Kingdom bill is finalised, so that any changes can be considered and, when appropriate, reflected in the Scottish bill. Timings will be kept under review, given the uncertainty around the timing of the UK bill.

It is important that everybody knows that we will be going through a process that will allow members to ask questions and will ensure that, finally, the people affected and their families have an end to something horrible that was brought about by the Post Office in the UK.

The question is, that amendment S6M-13118.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

There will be a division.

There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

14:11 Meeting suspended.  

14:16 On resuming—  

The question is, that amendment S6M-13118.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, be agreed to. Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is closed.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

The result of the division on amendment S6M-13118.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, is: For 55, Against 70, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The next question is, that motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Tuesday 7 May 2024—

delete

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill

and insert

followed by Personal Statement: Humza Yousaf

3.00 pm Selection of First Minister

(b) Wednesday 8 May 2024—

delete

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business

and insert

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care;
Social Justice

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Implementing the Cass Review in Scotland

followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Supporting Scotland’s Colleges

delete

5.10 pm Decision Time

and insert

5.35 pm Decision Time

(c) Thursday 9 May 2024—

delete

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice

followed by Ministerial Statement: 2024-25 Finance Update Following UK Government Spring Budget

followed by Scottish Government Business

and insert

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Data Protection and Digital Information Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill