Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 21, 2023

Official Report 642KB pdf

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Scottish Youth Parliament Equalities and Human Rights Committee

The third item on our agenda is to hear virtually from the convener and deputy convener of the Scottish Youth Parliament’s Equalities and Human Rights Committee. They will provide an update on areas that we previously discussed with them. I welcome to the meeting Ramiza Ahmad MSYP and Zainab Adeleye MSYP, respectively convener and deputy convener of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee of the Scottish Youth Parliament. You are very welcome.

Members will recall Ramiza and Zainab from our business planning day in September. We are keen to hear what you have to say. Either of you can respond to any of the questions that we might ask, but if there is something that one of you is really keen to say, please type “R” in the chat box, and I will come to you when I can.

I refer members to papers 1 and 2, and I invite Ramiza and Zainab to make some opening remarks.

Good morning, everyone. I am Ramiza Ahmad, Member of the Scottish Youth Parliament for Kirkcaldy and convener of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee. I remember everyone from last time. You were all really sweet and generally just really kind. I heard before the meeting that everyone was planning on meeting someone again, so I brought him along: here is our committee mascot, Fernando. I thought that I would bring him back because I heard a lot of talk of, “Is Fernando coming? Is Fernando not coming?”, so I brought Fernando.

I will hand over to Zainab to give her introduction.

Hello, everyone. My name is Zainab Adeleye. I am the MSYP for Glasgow Southside, and I am the deputy convener for the Equalities and Human Rights Committee in the SYP. Thank you so much for agreeing to meet us again. We are really excited to show you the progress that we have made since the last time that we met. Thank you.

Thank you both very much for being here and for agreeing to have this conversation with us. We will now move to questions. Rachael, do you want to kick off?

Morning. Nice to see you again. I first want to ask a very broad question. What have the MSYPs, in their roles, been doing to increase awareness of culture and heritage?

Ramiza, do you want to take that one first?

Yes, I will take that first. We met in October and had our SYP sitting. Our committee met, and we discussed how we wanted to take it further in inviting MSYPs to discuss their heritage. We consulted MSYPs online because, at that point, we were still planning things and had not met in person. We had feedback, and a few MSYPs came forward to discuss their heritage. We are taking that forward to see whether we can get any more MSYPs or former MSYPs to continue that discussion a little more. Some people do not know their background 100 per cent, so they are researching that, whereas others do not feel as comfortable. It is kind of difficult to ensure that we get as much as we can but also respect that people may not be okay with sharing things. We are a bit half and half with it.

Ramiza, how do you take that forward in terms of policy or motions?

We put forward our committee motion at the October sitting that we mentioned. I can read it out for you if you like:

“The Scottish Youth Parliament believes that decision makers should take further steps to ensure students who do not speak English as their primary language have their right to education upheld through ensuring there are quality ‘English for Speakers of Another Language’ (ESOL) classes made available in every school and college across Scotland, as well as increased training for educators to help them better include these students.”

Our motion passed with 94 per cent agreement among the membership. We made it not only an opinion motion but an action motion, and we are working on five action points as a result of that. We are on action 1.

I have another question as a follow-up to that. We have seen a lot of children arriving in Scotland from Ukraine. Have you had any contact with those children and young people, who obviously have little or no understanding of the English language?

Recently, I have not been able to do much national work. However, locally, I have spoken to a few young people. We have had a lot of Ukrainian refugees in my constituency, not just in Kirkcaldy but in Fife. I have spoken to young people and, on top of that, I have been trying to do more by speaking to services to understand how big an issue it is so that we can do more consultation and see how we can get help to those students and young people as soon as possible.

Okay. I will bring Zainab in. Nice to see you again. Do you want to add anything on the engagement that you have been doing, as MSYPs, with young people, particularly regarding their culture and heritage? I asked a question about young people coming from Ukraine. How do you think that they have been able to participate, particularly in learning the English language?

Your first question was on culture and heritage. The last time that we met, we spoke about holding an event for Black History Month, which we did successfully. We got members of our committee to come together and talk about black people who inspired them. The theme for that was healthcare. For example, I spoke about the meme that was popular in 2020 about a lady who had Gorilla glue in her hair. A lot is known about her, but not a lot is known about the doctor who helped her. She had gone through many healthcare procedures to remove the glue, none of which had worked. However, because the doctor had a chemistry degree and had gone through all that, he managed to help her. That story was a way to raise awareness of black people whose works are not really out there.

We have not had any contact with the Ukrainian refugees who are coming in, but we have a connection with the Scottish Refugee Council. If we contacted the council, we might hear about how to help them. I know that the Scottish Refugee Council often holds meetings and workshops for incoming refugees, so, if we contacted the council, we might hear about how they are planning to move around the issue.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us and for bringing Fernando with you. It is always nice to see a pet, stuffed or otherwise, online.

I am keen to pick up on cultural awareness, where my colleague Rachael Hamilton left off. When we last spoke, there was an aspiration for us to do something on particular weeks. Can we help with that on an on-going basis? What would you like or do you need politicians in this room and across the chamber to do to support that work?

I think that Ramiza would agree with me that if we had—[Inaudible.]—culture or heritage coming to speak. If we could have a merged event, it would be broadcast and that would raise more awareness of what we are doing. We could have a merged event and people from the Scottish Parliament speaking at it.

Sorry, Zainab, I missed the last bit of that. I think that you said that you would like MSPs to speak at events throughout the year.

Yes, at events.

Ramiza, do you want to add to that?

Yes. I will bounce off what Zainab said. I made some extra notes so that I would know exactly what I was going to say.

Last year, we were not able to do as much for Asian heritage month and particularly for south Asian heritage month—[Inaudible.]. We were struggling to find the basis of what we could cover. This year, we hope that the SYP and the Scottish Parliament can work together to raise more awareness through social media campaigns, by getting MSPs to talk about their heritage in the way that MSYPs plan to do. We want to spend longer planning the month thoroughly and going into depth and working together on it. That will show that we are not just talking about heritage but that young people and the Scottish Parliament are working together to understand people from Asian backgrounds.

Thank you. That is really helpful. We will have a think about how we can do that.

Convener, may I go on to my question about English for speakers of other languages?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. Obviously, there has been a lot of focus this week on Ukraine and the illegal war there. We heard briefly about that just now. I take the point about your engagement with those families, but do you know whether access to training in English as a second language here has been stretched? Are there enough resources to make sure that people who come here from Ukraine and other countries get access to that education?

09:45  

Over the past little while, there has been a little bit of a stretch with more accommodation for Ukrainian citizens and refugees. However, we could be doing a bit more about that and seeing how we could expand it. It is easy for me to just say that a bit more could be done to help those students who are coming here. Moving is enough of a struggle. I have seen recently that there is support, but there is not enough. The council—[Inaudible.]—and they have to get it independently, on their own. After everything that they have been through, they should not have to act independently when it comes to their learning. A bit more should be done.

When you say “independently”, do you mean that families have to source that training, as opposed to its being readily available?

Not in that sense; it is more about when young people are in educational services, whether it is college or schools. Sometimes, not enough is being put through from staff to support them. There are services, but it is mainly staff or, sometimes, the services are not available as often as the students need.

I appreciate that. Zainab, do you have anything further to add?

Regarding the question about the training—[Inaudible.]—I do not really know. However, I do know that although young Ukrainian refugees have access to ESOL in schools, that training is not readily available for adults or those who are over the age of 17; they have to source it. A refugee who is not from Ukraine spoke to me about how, when she came in, she had to source ESOL training. Her application process was rigorous and long, and she complained that, even though her English was not good, she had to do a long application with so much written English. It was so hard for her to apply and she just gave up. She went to an organisation that helped her. The application process for ESOL training for adults or even young people who are older than the school age should be made easier. They should work with charities—[Inaudible.]—to help them apply.

In the motion that you read out earlier, you said that “further steps are needed”. Will you set out some of those further steps for us?

Do you mean the action plan that we came up with once we had agreed the motion?

Yes.

Just give me two seconds; I will read it out for you.

Our first action, which we are working on, is to talk to relevant stakeholders involved in that work, such as Education Scotland and the Scottish Refugee Council. We have had a bit of an issue recently with getting in touch. I have been at university and Zainab has been busy and because schools are back on, we have had a bit of a struggle with contacting people. However, I have spoken to SYP staff and I have a little bit of local work that I will be doing to understand the Fife services and then I hope that we will expand that work by getting other people on the committee to do the same.

The second action is to make a toolkit to highlight what key aspects should be included in mandatory training. The third action is social media campaigns that emphasise the importance of mandatory training. The fourth action is to speak to decision makers to try to get a commitment to ensure that the motion will be taken forward. The fifth is to work with you, when possible, on the next stages of the campaign.

Good morning, Ramiza and Zainab. It is always good to see Fernando again.

The ESOL support motion had overwhelming support from the Scottish Youth Parliament, with around 94 per cent of the members agreeing to the motion. The motion stated that the classes should be made available in every school and college across Scotland. Should there be geographical differences—for example, between rural and urban areas—in the roll-out of ESOL support? I will go to Zainab.

I will answer first. Can you repeat the question? My microphone has been a bit iffy.

Yes, of course. There was overwhelming support from the Scottish Youth Parliament for the ESOL support motion, with 94 per cent of its members agreeing to the motion. The motion was on classes being available for every school and college across Scotland. Should there be geographical differences between urban and rural areas in the roll-out of ESOL support? Should all of Scotland be getting the same ESOL support, or should there be geographical differences depending on where the support is needed?

That is a conversation in which two arguments can be made. There are areas where more young people need the support. It can sometimes be the case that urban areas have more people who need support than do rural areas. From consultation, however, it has been found that rural areas are getting near to no support. It would be nice to make sure that it is 100 per cent equal, but we need to make sure that we base it on the area and on how many people need the support and that we then ensure that everyone is getting some form of good support in their area, rather than trying to cover everything equally. That is not impossible, but we struggle to do that, if that makes sense.

On the back of what Ramiza said, we should make the ESOL support available to the people who need it more. We believe in equality through ESOL. It is the kind of scenario in which A needs water but you give A food instead of water. Although you are doing a good thing, you are not giving them what they need. The ESOL support should be given to the people who need it, and, later on, it should be given to others. It may be a small proportion of people in urban areas who need it first. If, for example, urban areas have fewer people who need support, you give them less support, and if the rural people need more, you give them more until we have a lot of resources. We are working with minimal resources right now, so it is best to use them wisely until we have excess.

Thank you for that response. The motion speaks a lot about ESOL support being available in schools and colleges, but there is not a lot of mention of community learning. You may remember that the last time that we spoke, I was saying that we should be looking at places of worship. I know that mosques, gurdwaras, temples and many other places of worship do a lot with education, especially Sunday school, which could include learning a language such as Punjabi. Should we be reaching out to those communities to help deliver ESOL support as well? Should that be considered, so that we can reach out to those communities?

Yes. When people come into a country, more often than not they look for people with whom they can connect. Most of the time, that is in places of worship. If they are more than likely to go to a place of worship, it is smart to work with them, because that is where people regularly are.

I think that it is important to include people who go to a place of worship. Sometimes, people do not fully know their options. I have helped out a few friends and other people who struggle with English, and they cannot really go to their education services to speak about it—they are quite anxious about doing that or are just generally unable to do so. When you are at a place of worship where people are speaking your first language, you have comfort and are then able to say, “Yes, I need support with my English”. It is important that we can offer that for speakers of any other language as well.

Thank you very much for your response.

Thank you very much. You said that decision makers had to act. I think that you have already responded to my colleague Pam with some of the actions that the Scottish Government could take. I want to widen that out a little bit and ask about the areas that you are prioritising and how they fit with the Scottish Government’s priorities. Do you think that that is a good fit, or are there areas that the Scottish Government should look at that would align with your priorities? Ramiza first, please, if that is possible.

Is it okay if you say that again? Sorry; my internet is being a big pain today.

No problem at all. I will break it down. One bit was about your priorities—the things that you are looking at—and how they fit with the Scottish Government’s priorities, and whether you think that that is a good fit or that the Scottish Government could do things differently.

In general, or just relating to our committee motion on ESOL?

Regarding your committee motion, yes.

Okay. Sorry, just give me two seconds as I try to think about the best way to answer that.

I do not mind if Zainab wants to come in.

Zainab, would you like to come in, and I will think of a proper answer? I have got things in my head; I am just trying to say them properly.

It is fine. Take your time.

Regarding refreshing the plan to stretch out ESOL, the new ESOL strategy has not been refreshed since 2020. Things have changed since then. I think that the plans regarding how much ESOL is—[Inaudible.]—could be refreshed. I think that that would allow people to do what they are trying to do.

Did you say that the plans on ESOL have not been refreshed since 2020? I could not hear.

Yes.

Yes, 2020. Sorry.

Brilliant. Thanks so much. Ramiza, are you all right there?

Yes. Sorry, I was just going to bounce off what Zainab said. It would be great to see a refresh, especially after the past three years that we have had, to understand where we are now and see where we are going to move on to next. It does not seem to be a huge Scottish Government priority. It would be good if that could get seen to or if we could at least see more focus on it.

Thanks very much.

Good morning. It is nice to see you both again, and it is nice to see Fernando, too—it is a joy.

I want to ask about contested heritage. I am curious and want to get your viewpoint. In towns, villages and cities throughout Scotland, there are statues that perhaps have a negative past associated with them. For example, the statue of Henry Dundas in Edinburgh is being recontextualised in the form of a plaque, because he was in favour of delaying the abolition of slavery. What are your views on that? How can we, as elected representatives, take action on those things and call them out? I will go to Zainab first.

10:00  

The Scottish Youth Parliament has a policy that calls for the removal of all statues, plaques and street signs that commemorate those who were complicit in or benefited from the slave trade. We understand that this is a bit controversial, because of the significance of history in our day-to-day lives, but we support the removal of the statues. Statues are a thing of honour, and, if the statues are still upright, are we honouring the behaviours that those people have shown? It comes down to us asking what we put the statues up for. Are they still there for honour, or do we now see the bad things that those people have done, and do we still believe that they deserve to be there?

That is really helpful.

I go back to the policy that we have at the Scottish Youth Parliament, as Zainab said. On top of that, it is about accepting that these people have made—[Inaudible.]—significant changes but weighing the bad with the good. It is good to commemorate what they did, but we have to commemorate the good—I am trying to word this in a good way—and discuss the controversy about the things that they have done in the past.

One thing that has been noticed over time is that, when there is a lack of discussion of the less easy and controversial aspect of things, young people, and the population generally, can often feel as though we are not getting the whole truth or that we are not understanding those people correctly. It would be better if the facts were stated and we said, “These are the things that these people have done. They are amazing and great but, on top of that, they have also done these things.” As Zainab said, we have a policy, and that is what we believe in.

I hope that that makes sense. I know that it is a bit half and half.

It makes sense, and I am really grateful for your contributions, because we need to know whether recontextualising is enough. Zainab, you made the point that you feel that statues are erected in honour of somebody and are not just a reflection of history in a moment in time. Even if we are looking back on these things, looking forward in how we give honour and show history is important so that we do not repeat mistakes. It was really interesting to hear your views on that, so thank you.

Thank you very much to the panel. I have really enjoyed the session. Thank you to both of you for what you have already said.

I want to cover how you engage with young people. You talked a lot about that when you answered questions from my colleague Rachael Hamilton, so I will not totally go over that, but are there areas or schools where it is more difficult to get that engagement, or is it the case pretty much across the board that, if you contact local authorities or schools, the MSYPs get access to other young people? Are you encountering any difficulties? If so, is there anything that we as a Scottish Parliament committee can do to help you with that?

When it comes to trying to consult young people or just generally to have a conversation, there are many times when people are quite open and want to hear more or want us to listen to them, whether they are schools, educational services or organisations. Organisations are a big one, and sometimes youth organisations are keener than schools or other educational institutions to get to know us a bit more. They want us to hear what they have to say.

As Pam Gosal mentioned, people often go to places of worship, and I sometimes find it easier to consult young people there. It is a great way, even for the Scottish Parliament and MSPs in general, to consult people if you cannot consult them otherwise. You will always find people in places of worship, and they will always want to be heard or have a discussion. It will be a civil, calm and peaceful discussion with people of all ages, which is great.

Sometimes, however, people do not understand who an MSYP is, what we represent or the work that we do. We can be disregarded or put to the side, and speaking to people can be difficult at times. It would be great to have more awareness of who we are and what we represent so that more young people know who to go to.

My personal experience of going to schools et cetera has not been good, mostly because the people do not know who we are. For example, last September, MSYPs in my constituency decided to go into schools for a consultation. We were met at the front desk with, “What is the SYP?”, because they do not understand the importance of students’ voices being heard through us, and we are seen as a secondary issue. We are not seen as the main way that students’ voices can be heard.

The Scottish Parliament can help us by emphasising our importance to young people or by making sure that young people know that the Scottish Youth Parliament is important and that we are elected to be the voice of young people. If our importance was emphasised, we would get different results.

You will know that part of an MSP’s job is to go to schools in our constituencies and regions. Would it be helpful if MSPs, as a matter of course, when speaking to modern studies classes, or whatever we have been asked to speak on, were to make sure that part of their presentation makes schools and classes aware of the Scottish Youth Parliament? Would it be helpful to do some joined-up sessions with local MSYPs?

Yes, that would be helpful, because it would show that we are their representatives and they can easily contact us because they have easy access to us. However, many people do not know about our work or existence. If that was part of the presentation, it would give us better outreach. Whether it is a modern studies class or another event, it would be good if MSPs were to invite their local MSYPs to come with them, if that is possible, and say, as a starting point, “This is your local MSYP, and here’s their email address.”

Fulton, do you have any more questions? Ramiza wants to come back in.

I am happy for Ramiza to come back in. I have no other questions.

Fulton has made a great point about how we can do that. I agree with Zainab that bringing MSYPs to such events would be great. A lot of MSPs tried to get to know the MSYPs when they were elected, but they could also keep the MSYPs updated on what they are doing, invite them to events and work together with them a bit more.

Generally, it is about showing people the work that we are doing. When we were at school, we were taught what an MSP does. We would hear from an MSP, who would come to the school. Perhaps the MSP could speak on our behalf and say what an MSYP does and explain the similarities and the differences between the roles, which I did not know until I joined the SYP. Although my SYP experience has been great, before I joined the SYP, I did not know what changes and impacts I could make, whatsoever. In school, I was told that it was a youth parliament and that I could do some things, but I did not realise what work I could do, who I could talk to and the opportunities that I could get from it. That would really make an impact, and a lot of young people would become more interested in the SYP.

Thanks very much, both of you, for that. We are coming to the end of this session, but I want to give Ramiza and Zainab the opportunity to make us aware of anything that you have remembered from previous questions and want to make sure that we are aware of. Also, is there anything that you would like us to consider about how our committee works with your committee or, more generally, any way in which we can support the Scottish Parliament to work with the Scottish Youth Parliament?

The questions have been great. I loved how everyone remembered everything that we said and took it into consideration. It is really sweet. I also really liked that everyone missed Fernando a little.

It was great to know that people took into consideration the cultural awareness months. Zainab and I would emphasise that, if we can work together on social media campaigns or events, it will create a huge awareness, and the young people of Scotland who come from different cultural backgrounds will feel that they are being represented a lot more. It is easy to say, “We have these people in the Youth Parliament who are representing us,” but, when people see that they have a similar heritage or background, they will be more inspired.

I would like to add one more point, which is about the reconsideration of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Bill, if that is all right.

Of course; carry on.

The SYP has been slightly frustrated that a timetable has not been published for the next stages of the UNCRC bill. It has been almost two years since the bill was passed, and the cost of living crisis has led to more rights issues for young people. It is disappointing that we are no further forward and have no further information. We want young people to continue to be updated and included in the process, if that is possible.

Thanks very much. The committee will discuss what to do about that well-made request.

Zainab, do you have any final thoughts or comments?

I want to go back to the question that Karen Adam asked about the statues and give my personal opinion on that. Yes, the statues should be taken down because statues are a thing of honour, but they could be replaced by things like writings on the ground. We should not erase history. Whether we like it or not and whether it was pleasant or not, history happened. We need to make sure that we do not erase history, because those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it. That is a popular saying that I really believe. We could have writings on the ground to show that, although we do not support those people, we recognise that that history happened and that people deserve to know about it.

I also want to talk about the research on the right to food that we are conducting in the SYP and that will come out in March. I ask the committee members, please, to help by meeting your local MSYPs to discuss the findings and to help promote those findings. We were talking about the outreach of the SYP. If MSPs could meet with their local MSYPs, that would be really good.

Thanks very much for that, Zainab.

We will draw the session to a close now but, before you go, Ramiza and Zainab, I thank you very much for joining us and for your contributions. You have given us a lot to think about. You have raised quite a few points, and we, as a committee, can discuss how to take forward those issues. We are interested; please keep us up to date. Let us know how things go with your action plan and how you are getting on with the work that you are doing. If there are specific things that you would like us to do to support you or to share on social media and elsewhere, please contact our committee clerks, and we will do what we can to support you.

We will keep in touch. Later this morning, we will have a conversation about the requests that you have made of us and the comments that you have made and about how we can continue to work together over the coming months. Ramiza and Zainab, thank you very much.

I suspend the meeting briefly while we change our panels.

10:15 Meeting suspended.  

10:18 On resuming—