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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 31 July 2025
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Displaying 3539 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

One of the issues with the national performance framework is that, when the programme for government comes out, it does not seem to connect directly to it. That is one issue.

Another issue is that many organisations and the wider population do not really have much understanding of what the national performance framework is. It seems to bubble around in the background, but it is not as prominent as perhaps it was intended to be. Is that a fair comment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

We have all seen ministers stand up in the chamber and say that they will bring out a certain plan, strategy, document, refresh or whatever it happens to be—you name it—in the spring. We then find ourselves in the summer and it has not happened. Such documents never seem to come out, say, a week early; indeed, they are very rarely on time.

From experience, I expect there to be more battening down of the hatches. Ministers are ultimately held to account, but there appears to be a sense of drift across the whole Parliament when that does not happen, which does not help anybody. I just wonder whether there will be a bit more emphasis on ensuring that, when a deadline is set, it is met. After all, it would inspire a lot more confidence not only in the Government but in the Parliament and its institutions.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

We will be speaking to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance specifically about the report once we get her response to it, so I am pleased that you have already taken a lot of that on board.

We will now move to questions from colleagues around the table.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that very helpful opening statement—not that it really was helpful, because it has blown away a lot of the questions that I was going to ask. I have been scribbling down more questions as you have been speaking.

You touched on the size of the civil service, which is causing several concerns. The civil service has been described by some Opposition politicians and the media as “bloated”, and you said yourself in your statement that you want the public sector to be “smaller and more agile”. What do you feel would be the optimal size of the civil service in Scotland, and how long will it take to get there?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

We have had a very wide range of questions, which I thank you for answering. It cannot be easy to draw on so many different sources of information simultaneously. I know that you will follow up on one or two matters in writing. Before we conclude our meeting, do you wish to make any further points to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I have a sneaking suspicion that you will not want to mention any who are performing sub-optimally, but are there any who are performing exceptionally well that you can look to as a beacon for others?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I knew that it would be a struggle, but I thought that I would try my best.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That was probably going to be the last question that I asked you, so I am glad that you have touched on it. One of the concerns over the national performance framework is just how widely it is used within Government. There is a feeling among the committee that perhaps too much lip service is paid to it, and that it is not used as a working tool. Is that something that you want to change?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

It does not necessarily have to be a figure such as 6,231, to pick a number out of thin air. Surely it could be a range. For example, if there are about 7,000 civil servants just now, would the optimal figure be 6,000 to 6,500, or would it be a smaller range than that? That is the sort of thing that I am looking at.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You say that we can make some reductions and you said that we have reduced the size of the public sector by 5 per cent over three years, but, if there is an optimal size—surely there must be an optimal size—one would have thought that you would be looking to say what the optimal was for each department, and, if we have figures for those, there must be a way to reach a figure for the optimal size overall. It is a bit woolly to say that you do not really know. It is almost as though you are moving in the darkness. It does not inspire confidence that you do not know what target you are aiming for, does it?