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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 1631 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that there are efforts in that respect. I have a final question, which is for Wendy Sinclair-Gieben.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

I have one or two more questions, based on things that struck me as you were speaking. I was struck by what Katie told you about life inside a young offenders institution and the kind of people who are in there. I presume that she was talking about female inmates rather than the general population.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

I guess that I am trying to work out what the role of our young offenders institutions is, because there seems to be opposition at both ends of the argument. Some think that people who are old enough to be in adult prisons can be in YOIs but that people at the lower end of the age spectrum absolutely should not be in them at all. It is difficult to see what their place in the justice system is.

To present a scenario, is it appropriate for a 24-year-old adult male who has committed a serious sexual assault or rape to be held in a young offenders institution? Equally, is it appropriate for an 18-year-old who has committed the same offence, and is of sound mind, to be held in secure accommodation? Are you saying that it would be okay as long as they are separate from children—or from other younger children? I guess that there is a moral and philosophical question about how we treat people. Everyone is an individual, and where they are in the system is unique. I am trying to get my head round how we can use arbitrary rules to deal with quite complex individual cases.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

It is a difficult issue, because we do not have different institutions for different types of offences or different types of people. In that respect, it is very much a one-size-fits-all environment. This goes back to my previous question. If custody has to be the disposal that is used, could we make those places better, or could we use other places? Have you done any research into other national models, for example? Do you have any experiences that you want to share with us?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

In the committee, we have talked a lot about the differences between those who are held on remand and those who are convicted. I appreciate that there is a legal difference between the two states but, clearly, they come with differing approaches as to what people have access to, what their rights are and what can or cannot be asked of them or offered to them. Does that need to change, too?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

The problem is that, if the bill were passed tomorrow, we could not move those people to secure accommodation because there is no capacity. Capacity is being used up by people from authorities in other parts of the UK that are paying more. There would need to be a pretty substantial change to secure accommodation in order to accommodate that direction of travel.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

I am going to start with a question for Gerald Michie. Gerald, you said that there are seven children in the prison estate.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

What do you think their role is? I have grappled with that question over the past year as we have taken a lot of evidence on the issues. Do they have a role in Scottish justice?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

How do you define “children”?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Jamie Greene

Which part of the establishment will they transfer from?