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I have one final quick comment. To go back to Ruth Breslin’s point about the difficulties with prosecutions and possibly bringing in an on-the-spot fine, my instinct would be that men who pay for sex would pay a fine; I do not think that that would be any great deterrent. That is just my view.

Good afternoon. My first question is a quick question for Professor Phoenix.

In your opening statement, you said that sex work is always linked to violence, organised crime and so on. Is the logical conclusion not that decriminalising it would improve the situation? If sex work is decriminalised, it would not have those implications.

Conversely, one could say that the industry would be easier to police if it was decriminalised. I agree that there are violent men and there always will be, but if it was decriminalised, that could be the case. That is just a different viewpoint. I agree with my colleague Jamie Hepburn that the overriding concern for us all, regardless of what side of the issue we are on, is women’s safety; I do not think that anybody would disagree with that.

I come to Ruth Breslin, again on the aspect of women’s safety. We heard in previous evidence about general changes that would make sex workers less safe under the proposed model. One of those relates to the potential impact on an app that sex workers currently use to flag up dangerous customers, clients or whatever we want to call them. That is quite a concern.

On your point about migrant women, I am struggling to see how they would be safer if the buyer was criminalised. Again, we heard in previous evidence about a migrant woman who was charged with brothel keeping. She was trying to keep herself safe with colleagues, but she was arrested by police, who appeared—we were told anecdotally—with a battering ram, and they made stigmatising comments about her.

I hear what you are saying, but we have heard evidence that that is not the case. I want to ask you, and the other witnesses, what your thoughts are about the fact that brothel keeping is not in the bill.

Opponents of the bill would argue that full decriminalisation would give women the same health and safety rights that all workers are entitled to. That is not what you believe in—you do not think that that would be a good model. However, would it not also help with trafficking? If there was full decriminalisation, that would take away the criminal element to it.

Amanda, do you want to comment?

Would there be stigma attached to your accessing those services?

Yes, of course.

My question follows on from what Niki Adams was saying about brothel keeping, which I guess is just an old-fashioned way of saying “women working together”. I will just draw out a few bits from Laura Baillie’s written submission, which says:

“Brothel-keeping laws are used overwhelmingly to target migrant women: research from the Republic of Ireland found that 85% of those convicted in Ireland for ‘Brothel-keeping’ in recent years were migrant women. One of our members was charged with brothel-keeping, despite only seeking to create a safer environment for herself and her colleagues. Police arrived in large numbers with a battering ram, arrested her, and then proceeded to make stigmatising comments associated with her being a sex worker.”

In the same vein, the submission says that, although the

“bill proposes to decriminalise”

women,

“the police would still hold power over sex workers due to their ability to refer sex working mothers to social services”

and

“to refer migrant sex workers for potential immigration enforcement”.

I think that that is a really powerful part of the submission.

Knowing full well that you do not support the bill anyway, Laura, I wonder whether, if it were to pass, you would be in favour of brothel keeping being decriminalised.

My question follows on from what Niki Adams was saying about brothel keeping, which I guess is just an old-fashioned way of saying “women working together”. I will just draw out a few bits from Laura Baillie’s written submission, which says:

“Brothel-keeping laws are used overwhelmingly to target migrant women: research from the Republic of Ireland found that 85% of those convicted in Ireland for ‘Brothel-keeping’ in recent years were migrant women. One of our members was charged with brothel-keeping, despite only seeking to create a safer environment for herself and her colleagues. Police arrived in large numbers with a battering ram, arrested her, and then proceeded to make stigmatising comments associated with her being a sex worker.”

In the same vein, the submission says that, although the

“bill proposes to decriminalise”

women,

“the police would still hold power over sex workers due to their ability to refer sex working mothers to social services”

and

“to refer migrant sex workers for potential immigration enforcement”.

I think that that is a really powerful part of the submission.

Knowing full well that you do not support the bill anyway, Laura, I wonder whether, if it were to pass, you would be in favour of brothel keeping being decriminalised.

I thank the witnesses for coming today. We know that this is a polarising issue and we are about to hear from people who do not agree with the bill, but we all have women’s safety as our primary concern.

I want to ask Bronagh Andrew and Diane Martin about the support that is offered to women and how the Nordic model would change that. Can you give me a rough idea of the scale of engagement that you have with women sex workers at the moment?