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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 783 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

This has been an interesting discussion. I will go back to the subject of my previous supplementary question. There are issues with scrutiny and the ability for other people to give input. Those are baked into our parliamentary processes, but it is incredibly rare for evidence to be taken regarding secondary legislation, under either the negative or affirmative procedure, and it is rare to have any sort of a formal parliamentary scrutiny beyond placing a matter on this committee’s agenda and, perhaps, on the agenda of a lead committee. There is some parliamentary oversight of the substance of SSIs, but it is not just a little bit less than there is for primary legislation: it is almost completely absent.

Do we need to re-examine what happens? Do we need a parliamentary change or should the Government think about how it frames secondary powers within legislation? I put that question to Lloyd Austin first, because he was circling round those points in some of his previous answers.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I will start by following on from the answers to Bill Kidd’s questions, which also relate to some other points.

On post-legislative scrutiny, part of it might be about amending, updating and fixing. Michael Clancy pointed out earlier that there are other expedited legislative processes. Are alternative ways of viewing legislation part of what needs to be looked at? Should we have more legislation that addresses updates and fixes to the law, or shorter pieces of legislation that are more focused?

I was looking at the standing orders. Through the normal processes, in theory, without using emergency legislation, legislation could be got through in seven or eight weeks, given what is stipulated for the time between stages. Rather than always thinking that legislation needs to be big and long and drawn out, should we be using it to update and improve law as we go, as opposed to using secondary legislation to achieve the same effect?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Finally, I will bring in Jonnie Hall. The thrust of my previous supplementary question was that, sometimes, powers are set out in legislation that are so broadly stated that they could almost be used for entirely opposite objectives to those that were intended. I understand the point about flexibility, but is there a need to have more scrutiny and input on such things when instruments are going through Parliament? If so, do you have any thoughts on what that could look like and what would be useful—without impeding the flexibilities, which are clearly important—if there are pressing issues?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That was helpful. Ms Springham, do you want to comment?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

It was more broadly about whether there is more than one way to skin a cat. We are using secondary legislation to update things, but are there other ways of doing that?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I am smiling, because that is what the Government likes to say. However, when you look you will see that most weeks we are not legislating. In fact, if we were to have a stage 3 once a month, we would say that that was quite frequent. I think that the Parliament has scope to do more legislating, if it wanted to. In theory, it is an interesting point, but the situation is not the same in the Scottish Parliament as it is at Westminster.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

It must be bad, then.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Ms Crichton, did you want to comment?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

My substantive line of questioning, which was on practical suggestions that you might have, has, I think, largely been dealt with by others, certainly with regard to amending and other such matters. However, I was interested in the Law Society’s evidence, which makes a number of recommendations on framework legislation, including on provision of enhanced supplementary material, enhanced consultation and the possibility of legislation being amended.

In that respect, I have two questions. First, are you suggesting, essentially, that we should have a different process for framework bills in order to cover those things? I also noticed that the submission suggested—as you have, Michael—that draft regulations could be put alongside such bills to give greater clarity.

Is that about having a different process for framework legislation? If so, should that process also apply to secondary powers, such as those that might not be in full-blown framework legislation, but which have some of those characteristics? Is the implication that there should be some sort of sifting mechanism to decide when such a process should be employed?

12:15  

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

You are such an optimist—it is heartening. [Laughter.]

Ms Springham and Ms Crichton, do you have thoughts about enhanced material or other things that should be requested along with a framework bill?