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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 March 2026
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Displaying 1659 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

Thank you, Deputy First Minister. One of the key reflections that we must all have is that it is critical to have clarity on and an understanding of the impact of budget statements and actions ahead of time. I recognise that there have been some changes in recent days and weeks. Can you clarify what we should be expecting?

On the basis of the correspondence that the committee has had from the Scottish Government, my understanding is that its emergency budget response will be published on 24 October. Is that still the intended timing? Will the response be focused purely on changes to this year’s budget? Does the announcement that has been made in the past day on the bringing forward of the OBR’s forecasts for the UK Government’s budget decisions have implications for the timing of the Scottish budget?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

I have a final question before I hand over to colleagues. The committee has been taking evidence from a broad range of bodies and stakeholders in recent weeks. To my mind, one of the most significant insights came from the Auditor General, who highlighted the fact that the total payroll for the Scottish Government across the public sector is around £22 billion, which, in crude terms, is half the Scottish budget. The head count increased by around 15,000 during Covid, and the Government has set out the fact that it intends to bring the head count back to pre-Covid levels, although it will protect the national health service.

We have had those broad statements, but it strikes me that, with regard to the pressures, managing that payroll is critical. We also know that the medium-term financial strategy assumed that, in essence, the payroll bill would remain static, which would imply that managing the numbers is the key variable.

Can you set out in more detail what steps and measures the Scottish Government might consider in the coming financial year? Above all else, those who work in the public sector require a level of insight into and certainty about the security of their employment.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

It is clear that my comments about time discipline have instilled a remarkable discipline on the committee. It might be the first time that anyone has ever followed my lead. However, it means that we have time for some supplementary questions. I invite Liz Smith to ask her supplementary and I have one or two. If other committee members have supplementary questions, we have time in hand.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

Thank you. That is helpful.

Douglas Lumsden has a supplementary question.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

Indeed, we have had enough of big bangs from finance ministers in recent weeks.

I call Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

As we approach 11.20, it is quite pleasing for me that I can report that we are on time, according to my schedule. It might not be quite true to say that we are on budget, but we have certainly been on the budget this morning. I thank the Deputy First Minister for his contribution to the meeting, and I thank his officials for their support. We now move into private.

11:16 Meeting continued in private until 11:44.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

Good morning, and welcome to the 25th meeting in 2022 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. I am in the chair this morning because the convener, Kenneth Gibson, has had a family bereavement. I am sure that I speak on behalf of the whole committee when I express our condolences at this difficult time for him and his family.

Under agenda item 1, does the committee agree to take item 3, which is consideration of draft correspondence, in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

The next item on our agenda is an evidence session with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery on Scotland’s public finances in 2023-24, as part of our pre-budget scrutiny. Mr Swinney is joined by officials from the Scottish Government—Andrew Scott, director of tax and revenues; Gary Gillespie, chief economist; and Scott Mackay, head of fiscal management and strategy. I welcome you all to the meeting and invite Mr Swinney to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 4 October 2022

Daniel Johnson

I have one brief point of clarification. You clearly set out the role of borrowing in relation to investment and financial shocks. We hear comments from different parties—my own included—that suggest that borrowing brings some sort of infinite possibility for public expenditure. Do you agree with my view that, in broad terms, borrowing should not be used for current expenditure but that it should be there to provide flexibility around shocks or to allow for investment? Prudent financial management should not use borrowing either to fund tax cuts or to expand public spending.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Finances 2023-24 (Impact of Cost of Living and Public Service Reform)

Meeting date: 27 September 2022

Daniel Johnson

I am sorry—I was not going to make it easy just because I like retail.