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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 March 2026
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Displaying 1659 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

I was going to ask whether it is helpful to think about the question in terms of being about framework legislation, or whether it is about how powers are framed, but you have answered that, in a sense. There may be a follow-on question.

I think that we can all frame a spectrum where, on the one hand, legislation provides the power to set a rate or value, which can change over time, and at the other end, there are powers that could give ministers the ability to criminalise certain actions, which we can see would be problematic. Are there particular features of powers—they might be in the one delegated power in a bill—that we should look at? That could be about the type of power or about whether something is framework legislation.

I am also concerned that powers to make secondary legislation should have guardrails. Is the issue the type of power or the way in which it is framed? Should we have a taxonomy for identifying potentially problematic clauses? Andrew Tickell seems to be nodding most, so I ask him to respond.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Exactly.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That is one of my favourite lines, by the way. I use it all the time—if you do not understand it, it is probably wrong.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

It would be interesting to hear from Professor Whitaker. We will not be able to come up with a hard and fast test that would allow us to feed legislation into a computer to provide a green light for legislation that is fine or a red light for framework legislation, but is there at least a set of principles, as Dr Tickell has pointed out, that we could use to make that judgment?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Following on from some of the things that have just been said, I think that Dr Tickell, in particular, made the interesting point that the justification that is often given for this approach is the pace of change and, critically, the length of time that it takes to get legislation through the Parliament. As a parliamentarian, certainly in the Scottish Parliament, I would gently question that premise. That might be the case if we were dealing with stage 3s every day, or even every week, but ultimately, without using emergency procedures, a short bill can be passed in three or four months. It is not unheard of for a bill to be introduced in September and passed by Christmas time, depending on the length of it. Would witnesses agree with that insight?

I have no experience at Westminster, I am also interested to hear from panel members about whether the world is very different there. The ability have electronic voting here makes it easier to vote, for example. The more fundamental point is: should we be asking the Government to reconceive how it thinks about legislation? Should it be making shorter bills that are more focused? It might find that those are easier to get through. Essentially, the Government is seeking to avoid Parliament, but without necessarily having justification for doing so. Do you agree with those insights?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

The point that Dr Fox raised about the loss of the green paper to white paper procedure is important. Is the excuse that there is not the time valid in Westminster, or is that rationale just convenient for the party of government? Dr Govan, you are nodding.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

Dr Grez Hidalgo, was your proposal roughly along the same lines? Are there any other elements that you want to highlight?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That is also true of primary legislation. That is the argument that we constantly get from the Government when we lodge amendments to legislation. It says, “You don’t realise what you have done.” However, I take the broader point.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 7 January 2025

Daniel Johnson

That is noted.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

City Region and Regional Growth Deals

Meeting date: 11 December 2024

Daniel Johnson

Unless Anne Murray or Malcolm Benny wants to raise anything, I will leave it there.