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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3918 contributions

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Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I could continue, chair, but I do not think that time permits so I will pass back to you.

Meeting of the Commission

“Quality of public audit in Scotland: Annual report 2024/25”

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I have a couple of questions on audit delays. Paragraph 20 of the report tells us that 91 audits are delayed. In fact, when I look at it in a bit more detail, it tells me that 91 audits are late and “not making progress”, so they are not just delayed but stuck, it seems to me. I wonder whether you can address that. Can you also address this point? This is probably an unfair way of framing it but, if I could be simple in my approach, at the start of the report you talk about between 233 and 253 audits being completed; if there are 91 delayed audits, that is a ratio of between 35 to almost 40 per cent of audits that are delayed or “late and not making progress”. That is a huge proportion, is it not?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the year to 31 March 2025 and Auditor’s Report on the Accounts

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I want to continue to look at your “year in figures” table and turn attention to the fees and expenses that are paid to external firms. You have, for a long time, operated a mixed-market approach to public audit in Scotland, so you outsource about a third of public audits to be carried out by private companies. We approved a budget for the last financial year of £7.7 million, but the table shows that the actual spend was almost £9.5 million. That is a rise of 21 per cent in one year, compared to the budget. Can you explain that?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Annual Report and Accounts for the year to 31 March 2025 and Auditor’s Report on the Accounts

Meeting date: 23 June 2025

Richard Leonard

We accept, as a commission, that it is not a fixed-fee model and there is not necessarily a capped regime in place, but 21 per cent is quite a big variance, is it not? Given the institutional knowledge that exists in Audit Scotland and your familiarity with the mixed-market approach, when we are asked to approve a budget, we expect that to be more or less the same as the actual spend. I hear what you say, Ms Bibby, about particular cases and so on, but as a rule of thumb, I might expect the variance to be 5 per cent or a single-digit variance from the budget, but this is 21 per cent. That is of fairly large magnitude.

My second question is whether, among the six firms, there are particular firms that have charged significantly more in the audit work that they have been doing.

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I now invite Stephanie Callaghan to continue with the theme of the patient experience and other aspects of the Audit Scotland report.

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Stephanie, we are quite short of time. If you agree, we will move on and I will invite Graham Simpson to put questions to the panel.

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you Stephanie; that is much appreciated. I turn to Colin Beattie, who has some questions to put to the witnesses.

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I have two final questions to put to you, director general. The first may have been answered, not so much in the cabinet secretary’s statement, but in the associated paperwork that accompanied his statement, which I think Mr Chapman alluded to, in part, earlier on. I look back to the evidence that we took from the Auditor General on 14 May, which is reflected in paragraph 42 of the report. He said to us that

“the Scottish Government still needs to clarify its plans for general practice and to set out the actions, timescales and cost to deliver that.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 14 May 2025; c 4.]

What he is asking for there is very clear. Do you plan to publish that information?

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

In the fullness of time, you might perhaps be able to pause and reflect on the evidence session that we had with the BMA and the Royal College of General Practitioners before you came in, because they gave a rather different picture of the action that was needed.

I will ask you one final question, director general, which again relates to yesterday’s announcement. One of the things that was announced was the merger of National Services Scotland and NHS Education for Scotland. Mergers and reorganisations often deflect organisations from their core purpose. In the evidence session that we had before you came in and in this one that you have been involved in, it has emerged that both those institutions—both those parts of the delivery of services—are critical to meeting the aspirations and the ambitions of the 2018 contract. Do you not think that merging those organisations might deflect them from the things that we want them to get on with, including data collection and ensuring that GPs are properly and fully employed?

Public Audit Committee

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. You have covered many of the topics that we will pick up this morning, including IT, premises, funding and the delivery of support and services.

I will begin with something that is a bit more political and practical, perhaps, by going back to the First Minister’s programme for government statement. He spoke about the delivery of an extra 100,000 appointments in GP surgeries. What was your reaction to that?