The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. I will move us on by inviting Colin Beattie to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
You mentioned the DWP increasing its data collection, or improving the quality of its data. To what extent is there an interdependency between Social Security Scotland and the DWP? For example, in the context of income tax, there have been extensive evidence sessions at this committee about the contract on revenue collection with His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on behalf of the Scottish Government and the data that it gets out of that arrangement. Is there something equivalent going on in this case, or is Social Security Scotland very much standing alone in charge of the devolved benefits?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
We may, in turn, decide to ask the Government that ourselves at some point in the future.
Thank you for the evidence that you have given us this morning on what is an important report. I can particularly relate to Joe FitzPatrick’s encapsulation of it as being a useful exercise in examining how the implementation of the transition has worked. Is there a broader debate that needs to happen? If so, that would probably take us into policy areas as we consider the preventative interventions that could be made—and that takes us back to our old friend, the Christie commission.
On that note, I will draw the public part of this morning’s committee meeting to a close. Before doing so, however, I thank Richard Robinson, Erin McGinley and the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle, for the evidence that they have given us this morning.
10:59 Meeting continued in private until 11:18.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Graham Simpson is next on the list, but Joe FitzPatrick has some questions in this area, so I will ask him to come in first.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
My understanding is that the OBR forecasts, which are built into the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts, relate to the situation before the reforms were shelved. There was a revolt against the proposed reforms to PIP, which led to the brake being put on and Stephen Timms being appointed to head up a review. For the next year or so, there will not, as I understand it, be reforms to PIP. There will need to be a revision, so Joe FitzPatrick is right—the £770 million is based on the world as it looked like it was going to be, not the world as it currently is.
I will bring Joe FitzPatrick back in a bit later, but I will now invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “Adult Disability Payment”. I am very pleased to welcome to the committee the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. Alongside him are Richard Robinson, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland, and Erin McGinley, who is a senior auditor at Audit Scotland. We have some questions on the report to put to you, but, before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
You mentioned fraud and error risk, and the committee has considered the extent of that in previous evidence sessions. I suppose that, potentially, there is a tension between a draconian anti-fraud approach that comes down tough and a system that is designed on the principles of dignity and giving people a helping hand. How is that potential dilemma reconciled?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
One of the other paragraphs in the report that struck me is paragraph 82, in which you reflect on the fact that the rate of award for ADP in Scotland has often been lower than the rate of award for PIP in England and Wales. What does that tell us? Could there have been instances in which people were underpaid and the award was not as it should have been? Could people have been in receipt of less than they were entitled to?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 24 September 2025
Richard Leonard
No, that was a pretty comprehensive starter. That was a really useful introduction. As I said, members of the committee will have more questions in each of those areas.
I want to ask you about the population-based planning approach. In the report, the Auditor General concludes:
“Scottish Government have yet to confirm how this population-based planning will operate.”
Where are we, then, with how that way of planning health services is being developed? What stage are you at with that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 24 September 2025
Richard Leonard
To summarise your answer to that question, you still have yet to confirm how this will operate.