The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Richard Leonard
One of the fundamental questions that the committee has for you is whether you can think of many other circumstances where a public body has not set a budget. Similarly, and related to that, you make the point in the report that the internal audit function could not be relied upon at all. You could not set any store by or place any credence in the internal audit function. Again, I cannot remember reading a report where that has been highlighted in such a way.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Richard Leonard
I think that we have some further questions on that area later, but I will now invite Colin Beattie to ask some questions.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Richard Leonard
I am conscious that two members of the committee still have questions to ask, so, if we could press on, that would be helpful. Deputy convener, over to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed. We have come to the end of our time on this report. I thank Mark MacPherson, Nicola Wright and the Auditor General for presenting their evidence. The committee will need to consider what our next steps are. We are about to keep two of you, but lose Ms Wright, as we change over witnesses. To allow us to change witnesses, I briefly suspend the meeting.
11:16 Meeting suspended.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Graham Simpson has indicated that he does not have any questions. Colin Beattie, do you have any questions?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
You mentioned fraud and error risk, and the committee has considered the extent of that in previous evidence sessions. I suppose that, potentially, there is a tension between a draconian anti-fraud approach that comes down tough and a system that is designed on the principles of dignity and giving people a helping hand. How is that potential dilemma reconciled?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
One of the other paragraphs in the report that struck me is paragraph 82, in which you reflect on the fact that the rate of award for ADP in Scotland has often been lower than the rate of award for PIP in England and Wales. What does that tell us? Could there have been instances in which people were underpaid and the award was not as it should have been? Could people have been in receipt of less than they were entitled to?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “Adult Disability Payment”. I am very pleased to welcome to the committee the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. Alongside him are Richard Robinson, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland, and Erin McGinley, who is a senior auditor at Audit Scotland. We have some questions on the report to put to you, but, before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
My understanding is that the OBR forecasts, which are built into the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts, relate to the situation before the reforms were shelved. There was a revolt against the proposed reforms to PIP, which led to the brake being put on and Stephen Timms being appointed to head up a review. For the next year or so, there will not, as I understand it, be reforms to PIP. There will need to be a revision, so Joe FitzPatrick is right—the £770 million is based on the world as it looked like it was going to be, not the world as it currently is.
I will bring Joe FitzPatrick back in a bit later, but I will now invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 1 October 2025
Richard Leonard
Principle 6 of the eight principles in the report is to design the system
“with the people of Scotland on the basis of evidence.”
That takes us back to the first principle, which we have been looking at this morning.