The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
We will move on to talk about prevention and early intervention. Our questions on that theme will be led by Gillian Mackay.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
The next item is further consideration of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. We have two evidence sessions. The first evidence session will focus on the bill as it relates to the future of integrated health and care services, including community health, prevention, local services, rural services and transfer of functions.
First, I welcome panel members who are joining us in person. We have Nick Morris, the chair of NHS board chief executives and chairs; Alison White, the convener of Social Work Scotland; and Dr Chris Williams, the joint chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners Scotland.
We have two witnesses who are joining us online—Patricia Cassidy, who is the chief officer for Falkirk Health and Social Care Partnership and is representing Health and Social Care Scotland chief officers; and Alison Keir, who is the professional practice lead in Scotland for the Royal College of Occupational Therapists. Welcome to you all.
I will start off by asking for your general views on whether the bill as presented—this framework bill—has the potential to improve integration of services. One point has been put to us in a lot of the submissions from service users. I will quote one unpaid carer, who said:
“There is a lack of connection between health boards, councils, social care and public health. No joined up thinking.”
That is coming from somebody who is using the services, so I guess that our starting point is to look at the gaps and see whether the bill provides the framework, at the very least, for better integration. I will go round to each one of you. We will not be able to go round to each of you for every question, but—convener’s prerogative—I will allow everyone to answer my question, and then my colleagues will direct questions to individual witnesses.
A note for those who are joining us online—if I do not come to you in the first instance but you want to add anything, you can use the chat box to let me know that you want to come in. If you are in the room, just raise your hand and I will come to you. I will go round everyone in the order in which I introduced you. Nick Morris is first.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
Yes.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
Alison Keir wants to come back in. I imagine that you want to speak about what was said in response to Tess White’s question, so I am happy to bring you in before we move on.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
Sandesh Gulhane.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
That is very helpful, because the co-design will inform the secondary legislation, which should address the issues of detail that you have mentioned so far. I guess that you are behind the idea of co-design, but the co-design has to be meaningful.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
A couple of members have supplementary questions. It will need to be one question each, because we need to move on. We will have Tess White first. Could you aim your question at someone in particular? We will then come to Sandesh Gulhane.
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
Thank you. We have reached the end of our time with our first panel. I thank each and every witness for the time that you have spent with us this morning. It has all been very helpful.
I suspend the meeting for a 10-minute break.
11:05 Meeting suspended.Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
Our second evidence-taking session focuses on the independent review of adult social care, which was commissioned by the Scottish Government. Certain recommendations from the review have been incorporated into the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill and accompanying policy memorandum.
I welcome to the committee Derek Feeley, the former chair of the independent review. We will move straight to questions.
The case for a national care service formed a number of recommendations in your report. I will run through them for everyone who is watching. You said that
“Accountability for social care support should move ... to Scottish Ministers”
and that a
“national care service for Scotland should be established in statute”
that would
“oversee local commissioning and procurement”
of all the services—there is a list of services that should come under its remit.
You also said that it
“should oversee social care provision at national level for people whose needs are very complex”
and that the
“driving focus should be improvements in the consistency, quality and equity of care and support experienced by service users, their families and carers”,
as well as
“improvements in the conditions of employment, training and development of the workforce.”
Does the bill encapsulate those recommendations?
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Meeting date: 8 November 2022
Gillian Martin
That is contrary to what we have heard. You are hearing that people want the pace to increase and then to be maintained, yet some people—including witnesses today and last week—are calling for a pause. How does that square with what you are hearing from people?