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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Displaying 757 contributions
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
Forgive me if I am not being clear. The point that I am trying to drive at is whether people could subscribe to both points of view or could support only one or other of the options. I appreciate that you might not be able to answer that right now so, if we could get more information, that would be helpful.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
Good morning. Thank you for your evidence so far.
I will start with a question that is perhaps a little more unfair on panel 1 than on panel 2. With your permission, convener, I will go on to ask panel 2 the same question, so those witnesses will have the benefit of having heard the previous responses, whereas the current witnesses have not had that benefit.
Do you perceive that there is common ground on any element of the bill proposal with people who oppose the bill?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
I appreciate that. You have all spoken about the concern, which I think we all share, about ensuring that the safety of those who are involved in prostitution—who, clearly and overwhelmingly, are women, primarily—is paramount. That is imperative. I was taken with the point that you made, Amanda Jane, that no system can make prostitution safe. The question that we are grappling with in this context is whether changes under the bill would make it less safe or more safe for those who are involved.
I am happy to hear general observations. However, as well as your helpful written evidence, for which I am very grateful, we have had a variety of evidence submitted by people who are opposed to the bill. Information has been provided that suggests that, in other jurisdictions, changes that have been made that are similar to the proposals in the bill have made the experience of those involved in prostitution less safe.
Ugly Mugs Ireland has found evidence showing that the number of crimes against sex workers—that is the terminology that the organisation uses, I should say—almost doubled in the two years following the introduction of the law in the Republic of Ireland. HIV Ireland has found that, under the Nordic model, sex workers who experience violence at work are increasingly reluctant to report to the police. The Northern Ireland Department of Justice, in a 2019 review, reported that
“assaults against sex workers ... increased by 225% from 2016 to 2018.”
Médecins du Monde has reported that the law in France has led to 42 per cent of workers being exposed to more violence and 38 per cent finding it increasingly hard to demand condom use.
On the face of it, those are concerning figures, obviously. What is your response, on hearing that evidence?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
Perhaps we will need to look into that a bit more.
I have one final question, convener. I could ask a lot of questions, but I recognise that all members will be in the same boat.
I bring us back to the provisions of the bill, which talks about a duty to provide assistance and support to people who are looking to exit prostitution. What might that support look like, and could it be provided on a non-statutory basis?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
Yes, thank you very much.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
Your point is more about the consequences, which you think would run contrary to people’s human rights, rather than about the provisions of the bill per se.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
That is helpful to understand. Clearly, we will have the opportunity to ask questions about that, just as I am asking questions about the poll that Lynsey Walton’s evidence cites.
I have one final question, because it is important to ask the same question of panel 2 as I did of panel 1. It goes back to the duty to provide assistance and support to those seeking to leave prostitution and sex work. I think that all the people on the panel have said that they support that provision. What would that support look like? Could it be provided on a non-statutory basis?
11:45Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
I do not know whether Amanda Jane or Diane might have anything to add to that. It is okay if you do not.
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
When speaking with the previous panel, I promised to put my question about common ground to the second panel. Those whom we heard from on panel 1 are in favour of the bill and you oppose it. Do you perceive there to be any common ground between you?
Criminal Justice Committee
Meeting date: 8 October 2025
Jamie Hepburn
That would be helpful.
I have another question—