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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 November 2025
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Displaying 1699 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee

Petroineos Grangemouth

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Claire Baker

Thank you, minister.

I question the statement that

“no final decision ... has been made”.

The evidence that we heard from Ineos and Petroineos sounded very much to be a case of “This is the decision.” The final decision might be about when it happens, but there seemed to be no doubt that that is the plan for Petroineos, and that it intends to close the refinery.

We welcome the fact that you are going to the future industry board tomorrow. One of our recommendations in the report was that the UK Government should be involved in discussions around the future industry board. Will you update the committee on discussions that you are having with the Scottish Government? I think that you spoke to it most recently on 29 November. Have any discussions taken place since then?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Petroineos Grangemouth

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Claire Baker

Is it possible for broadcasting to adjust the volume? I will try to speak up.

My understanding is that your most recent meeting with the Scottish Government to discuss the future of Grangemouth was on 29 November. Have any discussions taken place since then?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Petroineos Grangemouth

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Claire Baker

The minister has limited time this morning, so I ask members to be more direct in their questions; if the minister could provide briefer answers, that would allow everybody to come in. I will allow Maggie Chapman a supplementary question on employment before I move to Evelyn Tweed.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Petroineos Grangemouth

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Claire Baker

We can hear you.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Petroineos Grangemouth

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Claire Baker

The announcement broke in the newspapers on 23 November. Is it fair to say that the UK Government and the Scottish Government were aware for a length of time, through conversations that they were having with Petroineos, that the closure of the refinery was coming at some near point in the future?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (North-east and Moray)

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Claire Baker

We received evidence from Moray trades union council that there is a trade-off with participatory budgeting. Although it achieves what you described, such as the public engagement on and enthusiasm for certain projects, Moray TUC suggests that it does not always award grants based on the objective criteria of need and merit. It highlights that

“in round 1 … around 50% of funds went to organisations based in Moray’s most affluent ward (Forres).”

Although participatory budgeting is positive and delivers some of the benefits that you described, how do you make sure that areas that have less capacity and experience in participatory budgeting or a smaller population—meaning fewer votes, if people vote based on a geographical area, as they often tend to do—are recognised? How do we make sure that the negatives do not outweigh the positives when it comes to participatory budgeting? Does there need to be a mix of ways in which resources are distributed?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (North-east and Moray)

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Claire Baker

The committee has an interest in the Grangemouth plan, given that we carried out an inquiry on that area and the recent announcements from Ineos. Do we have a timescale for the prioritisation of that plan that you are aware of?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (North-east and Moray)

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Claire Baker

The associated issue of how we measure the just transition is linked to that question. You talked about the need for it to be “planned and managed”. I think that, when Professor Paul de Leeuw spoke to us, he said that the destination is clear but the journey is not and that we know what the outcomes are meant to be but we lack detail on how to get there.

We also took evidence from the just transition lab, which has done quite a bit of work on how we could measure the just transition and what kind of indicators we could use. I understand that it is having discussions with the Scottish Government.

I know that we are looking at a longer-term plan, but should we have staging and measurement? The just transition is a difficult thing to measure, but should we at least attempt to measure it? At the moment, it feels like it is happening in a bit of a vacuum. How will we know whether we are on the right track in five years’ time or in ten years’ time, when we are meant to have achieved that? What work is the Government doing in that area?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (North-east and Moray)

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Claire Baker

There will be other questions about the fund in particular, but the just transition lab is looking at a thematic approach. It has suggested looking at “Employment, earnings, and skills”, “Housing, poverty, and wellbeing”, “Democratic participation” and “Community empowerment, revitalisation, and Net Zero”. It recognises that this is not just about the energy transition and skills; it is about broader areas. I know that those are difficult things to measure, but is the Government having discussions with, for example, the just transition lab, to think about whether it is the Government’s aim to set out a framework that can be managed and to get an understanding of whether it is having an impact on poverty and communities?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Just Transition (North-east and Moray)

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Claire Baker

Yes, and we—