The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
Displaying 1198 contributions
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
Okay. I will bring in Murdo MacLeod.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
My issue is that we have received evidence suggesting that there should be an amendment to the bill so that it could be applied only to senior management.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
Yes. I am talking about a situation where the company or corporate organisation had done everything that it should have done and all the procedures were there, but an employee acted in a way that was outwith the company’s procedures and that resulted in significant environmental harm. Some have suggested that the bill should be amended so that, irrespective of that, the directors of the company should be prosecuted. That is not in the bill, but it has been suggested that the bill should be amended to do that.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
Ricardo, can I clarify something? Are you suggesting that the regulatory authorities in England and Wales are issuing civil penalties for crimes that, based on the definition of ecocide in the bill, the bill would make a criminal offence in Scotland if it was enacted?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
Good morning. We have had a bit of a rear-view look at potential instances that could be covered by the bill. No one has identified any instances that have occurred since 2014—I think that Mr MacLeod went as far as saying that.
I am interested in the witnesses’ views on looking forward. Given your experience, are there gaps in the existing legal framework in this area that could interfere with your ability to prosecute a case in which severe environmental harm or significant environmental harm has occurred? Iain Batho, are you able to comment on that, given your expertise in prosecuting in this area?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
What if that defence was removed?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
That is helpful, because there has been some suggestion of the bill being amended so that only senior managers in an organisation could be prosecuted. I am trying to understand the situation where an employee carries out an act that causes significant environmental harm but was outwith the company’s procedures and that they should not have done. How would you then prosecute a senior manager or director of an organisation who knew nothing about that and was not involved in it? If a person acted outwith the company’s procedures, you might then pursue a prosecution against a senior manager that could result in that person being imprisoned for up to 20 years. I do not understand how you would take that forward as a prosecutor or how our courts would look at it.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
My point is not about the provisions that are in the bill; it is about the suggestion that those provisions should be removed in a way that would mean that the only individuals who could be prosecuted are senior managers.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
That is helpful. Thank you. Some EU countries have an administrative liability scheme as opposed to a criminal liability scheme when it comes to environmental crime, which is different from what we have in Scots law.
Deterrence is a key theme that has come through in the answers that we have had so far as to why we might wish to introduce a bill of this nature, with an ecocide offence. You will have heard the evidence that we received from the first panel. The head of environmental crime at the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service of Scotland said that it has been unable to identify any such offences having been brought to it since 2014 and that it is struggling to anticipate something in the future that the existing law would not be capable of dealing with.
If we lack any identifiable evidence of cases over the past, let us say, 10-plus years, and if our prosecutors are saying that they cannot think of any offences that could occur in Scotland that the existing law could not deal with but that the bill seeks to deal with, where exactly is the deterrence in introducing a bill of this nature?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 November 2025
Michael Matheson
Could I ask Rachel Killean about deterrence? Our prosecutors in the Crown Office say that they cannot identify any cases, and they cannot envisage any cases in the future, that they could not prosecute using existing legislation. Therefore, what is the deterrent effect of having a bill to criminalise ecocide?