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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3659 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Jonnie Hall spoke about making a distinction between a catastrophic event, such as a point-source pollution, and longer-term practices that might degrade the environment over time and which we might not know about until it is too late.

Can you point to particular risks around ecocide in each of your sectors? Are you saying that you do not see ecocide applying at all to your sectors and that you are more concerned about a wider definition that could capture long-term management of farms, the seas and Scottish Water assets over time? Are there other examples in farming—say, a pollution incident in which hundreds of tonnes of slurry goes into a river and kills it off—that you could clearly call ecocide?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

This has been a fascinating evidence session, and I certainly welcome the bill coming to the committee at stage 1. Sometimes members’ bills can highlight the Government’s blind spots, so the session has been really interesting. I want to pick up on a couple of things that came out of Kevin Stewart’s questioning.

First of all, we have this system of environmental regulation and environmental permitting, and I am interested in other jurisdictions that have adopted ecocide as an overarching offence. Has that driven reform of regulation, permitting and licensing, simply because of an underlying fear that some of the regulations are not fit for purpose and that, even though companies might have a licence under those regulations, they might, in some extreme examples, still be found by a court of law to have committed ecocide? I am just interested in finding out what this overarching legal change will do, if anything, to drive further environmental regulatory reform.

Professor Fogleman, I see you nodding vigorously.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Just before I leave you, Shivali, I think that you mentioned strict liability and particular sectors for which strict liability might be established as another form of backstop. I am thinking, for example, of genetically modified crops being released into the environment, or a GM fish that could decimate wild salmon populations. Could an ecocide law focus more on that area of strict liability being established in certain situations, or should that really be the subject of a separate conversation about environmental damage and how responsible certain sectors need to be?

09:45  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Thanks. Can we move to other speakers online?

Great, we have the screen back. We will go to Sue Miller.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Earlier, if I picked it up correctly, Elspeth Macdonald said that there are some concerns within the sector about the lack of investment in enforcement. Is your point that there could be situations in which fishers go into an area where a species gets fished out, which could constitute ecocide, but, because there is a lack of enforcement, licensing and enforcement of the licence should have kicked in earlier and people are therefore left in a difficult situation? I am just trying to imagine it from the fishers’ point of view. What is your concern? What changes as a result of the bill? Are you reliant upon the state effectively requiring you to stick with and enforce the licences, or does the bill bring in a new set of responsibilities for you? How do fishers address that challenge?

11:30  

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Anyone else?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

No immediate changes are required. You operate in a highly regulated environment, with ministerial objectives and an economic regulator. Is that system fit for purpose under the bill?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Is your concern with the marine directorate that the science is not agreed? Fishers could be trawling and dredging in an area with no understanding of the impact that it will have on species, so someone could come back later and say that they have just dredged out the last remaining flame shell reef or something like that. Is it the shifting nature of data and understanding of the environment that is causing your members concern, because they do not know whether they will be retrospectively charged with ecocide under the bill?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

Do you have any comments on the defence of necessity in the bill? Are there any examples of where that would come up as a defence from any of your sectors?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Ecocide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 September 2025

Mark Ruskell

That is quite broad, because you could put a wind farm in one location and perhaps have less environmental impact, or you could fish from a part of the sea where there is no environmental pressure.