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The ultimate assessment must always be whether we are getting better outcomes. In other words, is the number of crimes, fires and so on going down? How do we have services that reach people earlier? How do we have services that prevent, where appropriate, people going to prison? After all, that is in the interests not just of individuals, but of our communities and our country. We need to move the debate from quantum to quality and, also, to change, notwithstanding the undoubted difficulties with the financial envelope available to us.

I dispute the phrase “asset stripped”. It is true and a matter of public record that the formation of Police Scotland into a national police service from eight legacy services has resulted in savings of £200 million a year, which of course is a resource that is available for other public services. That is a good example of public sector reform releasing savings. We can also take assurance from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, which has time and again spoken of our outstanding operational policing services.

I have spoken at a fair amount of length about the challenges with capital. Police Scotland’s estates strategy has a very firm focus on the co-location of public services, not just because of the financial challenges that we all face but also in the interests of more collaborative working, which always seems like a sensible proposition to me. Police Scotland has probably instigated more than 60 co-location projects—there is one in my constituency. Reshaping the estate in light of capital challenges seems like a sensible thing to do, and can also lead to a better way of working.

On police officer numbers, we have 370 more officers than we did in 2007. Since the beginning of 2022, Police Scotland has recruited nearly 1,500 new recruits. We have 30 police officers per 10,000 of the population in comparison to 25 per 10,000 of the population south of the border. I contend that policing is secure and stable in terms of what it is achieving with regard to the investment and police numbers.

We still have to set the budget but I accept the point that body-worn cameras are a priority for the Scottish Government. As you said, the First Minister has spoken of that on a number of occasions. In the evidence that Police Scotland gave to this committee, it was made clear that it is also a priority for them. I believe that body-worn cameras are a good example of investing to save and of reforming how the business is done. Their use will lead to more effectiveness and efficiency, perhaps around the provision of evidence, and there is also an important point about officer safety.

I will not speculate, because I just do not think that that would be helpful. I will say that it will cost more than £400 million. I am confident of that. As soon as we have clarity on the final design, we will have clarity on cost, and I will endeavour to share that with the committee because it is a matter of public interest.

I would expect that information to come from the SPS. We will pick that up with the SPS.

It is important to remember that the number of fires has reduced in the past 20 years, which is to the credit of firefighters. My understanding is that, many years ago, the fire service moved away from having targets on response times. Instead, it has a targeted approach to risk and the allocation of resources. I do not know whether it was the current Criminal Justice Committee or a previous justice committee that was not convinced that time targets for response times was the best way to go. Bearing in mind the preponderance and incidence of dwelling fires and primary fires, we are in a safer place because fires have reduced. Nonetheless, community safety is a priority and we will continue to do what we can to support people with as much resource as can be afforded.

I dispute that, Mr Findlay, with respect.

There are two aspects to Ms Clark’s question. Yes, indeed, I visited the premises in East Kilbride to be able to apprise myself of the further advantages of GPS technology. I have commissioned my officials to explore that work and hope to keep Parliament abreast of that. We have seen success with the increase in the electronic monitoring with bail, for example. That is a good example of the use of technology that is not just to the benefit of individuals and families but also to communities in the long run. It is an important part of the jigsaw in relation to community payback orders. Community payback orders can have a very wide range of conditions attached to them and I would like to see that fuller spectrum of conditions utilised. I have recently discussed with Social Work Scotland how we can move forward and do that.

We do not want to take for ever and a day about it, but that will be finalised once the budget is finalised. I hope that I can convey to you and also to police officers, that the body-worn camera investment is a priority.

The assurance that I can give to this committee is that I will work as hard as possible to get the best possible budget for Police Scotland because I want the new chief constable to be able to make decisions as she sees fit around police numbers and the deployment of those resources. I know from my engagement thus far with the new chief constable that she is particularly focused on community policing and presence as a priority.

It is always the case that, in the lead-up to budgets, people make predictions, and predictions have to be made on assumptions, but I point to the fact that, this year, we ended up in a better financial position, and the most recent quarterly statistics around police numbers show a stabilisation at 16,600. We all value each and every police officer, and we want to support them to work in communities, whether that is via technology or other means.