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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 October 2025
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Displaying 366 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Good morning, everybody. I would like to come back to you, Mr Gibson.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Hello again, everyone. I will come first to Mr Hedges with my first question about Henry VIII powers. Your committee’s submission made reference—which I am sure that you remember—to a suggestion to strengthen scrutiny on that,

“to require the Minister making them to consult with relevant stakeholders before making, or laying a draft of, a statutory instrument.”

That highlights to me the possibility that there could be other forms of scrutiny and that there should be a better way of scrutinising that Henry VIII power. What might be a required or appropriate scrutiny method for that form of legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Mr Carson, in your submission, you refer to some bills in relation to Henry VIII powers, but not many. Do you have anything to add?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is very helpful. Thank you.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is very interesting.

Mr Jones, what is your opinion on what Mr Hedges has just said about Henry VIII powers and on the concern that Westminster could encroach on devolved legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is excellent—thank you.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

In the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s fantastic piece of work on the Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill, the committee stated that

“The increasing use of ‘framework’ bills that ... provide future Governments with enabling powers”

does not provide “the best estimates” of all likely costs and

“undermines Parliamentary scrutiny. It also risks the Parliament passing legislation which may in the end, once outcomes are fully understood,”

lead to significant cost increases. I accept that. The bottom line, which I want to highlight, is

“whether ... the outcomes the bill seeks to deliver ... outweigh any financial or affordability considerations.”

It is the outcomes that I really want to question.

Given the ambiguity around what a framework bill is or is not, and given the fact that we sometimes do not know that even at the inception of the bill, how important are the outcomes? Should they outweigh any financial situation? Should that be sacrosanct? Are we not putting enough emphasis on outcomes in the first place? Is it about saying that we just do not know what a framework bill is at the outset and that we should do more, especially from a financial position?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Is that purely because the key outcomes were not as defined as they should have been, or were they there but, as the co-design went through, it became more obvious that the outcomes were not achievable? I am sorry to be daft about that.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Good morning, everyone. You have already touched on the topics that I am looking to speak about, especially co-design.

I come back to something that Lloyd Austin mentioned—the idea of having a weak framework to start with and then secondary legislation coming in. One of my biggest concerns about this issue has always been, again, the financials. A financial memorandum is attached to a bill, but if there is no detail coming through, you have no idea, and we always end up with legislation that does not have the financial clout on which to follow through in secondary legislation.

Is that a legitimate concern if we do not get the framework side of things right in primary legislation, right up front? What are the consequences of weak bills and co-design, where everything seems come in secondary legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 14 January 2025

Roz McCall

Thank you. My apologies to Jonnie Hall, but I think that other witnesses have answered on where they think this is a good idea. I do not want to encroach on that.