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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 1571 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

I want to shift the focus a little bit. In the public sector equality duty, three needs are outlined, and the third of them is about fostering good relations. That need is often overlooked; public bodies do not necessarily focus attention on it or fully understand what it means. I am interested in your thoughts on that.

Pauline, I will start with you. Where do you see the fostering of good relations in your work with public bodies on the public sector equality duty? Do they get it? Do they talk about it? Does it feature at all?

12:00  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

The example that you used is one that involves thinking about equality stuff at the end of a budgetary decision process, rather than thinking about the equalities impacts of budgetary decisions as they are being made.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you, Rohini. Vic, will you comment on fostering good relations? Where do you see the barriers and the opportunities? Is any work happening in that area?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is pretty stark and, arguably, pretty damning, given how long the duties have been in place.

On the second and third needs, I take the point about “advancing equality” being lesser, but do both “advancing equality” and “fostering good relations” need to become much more prominent in the Scottish Government’s work on current and future reviews and the public sector equality duty, given the level of hate crime, the rise of the far right and the undermining of equality and diversity work that is happening across the board and not just in Scotland? Does there need to be more focus on that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning. Thank you for joining us and for your comments so far.

The difference between the presentations that you are giving us and what we heard last week is quite stark. To an extent, that is one of the reasons why we are undertaking this inquiry. Without the opportunities that we were hoping for during the human rights bill discussions, the PSED is something that we can focus on. We can look at where the duties are not being met.

I was interested in what Clare Gallagher said in her answer to Karen Adam’s question. We are failing on the intersectional aspects and we are failing to understand the complexities of the duties. Do you see that failure as being because the focus is on the process rather than on the outcome? Does that need to be addressed in the reforms? Others around the table will explore the reforms in more detail later, but is the reason for failure that distinction between process and outcomes?

09:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do you think that some of that is down to a lack of data or to not collecting the right type of data?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks very much. Others want to come in on the subject, too, so I will leave it at that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Do the reforms that are currently under discussion go far enough?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, Jatin.

I ask the same question of Jill Wood, about the gap between process and outcome, and whether the PSED is delivering the outcomes that it was thought it could deliver.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks very much. Jatin—I see that you want to come back in.