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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 July 2025
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Displaying 975 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Katy Clark

Okay. On the resources issue, there has been a great deal of media speculation around the sentencing guidelines for under-25s, particularly in relation to very serious offences. Will you outline the non-custodial disposals that are available? I do not mean community service, because that does not necessarily have a rehabilitation element as such. Rather, will you outline what is available to the courts that adequately focuses on supporting and trying to rehabilitate individuals who have committed very serious offences?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Katy Clark

I am in no way doubting the cabinet secretary’s personal commitment, but does she accept that there just has not been the structural shift that we need with resources being moved towards rehabilitation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

I want to pick up on quite a few of the points that Jamie Greene has raised and get a better understanding of why we now have 16 and 17-year-olds in the prison estate. I appreciate that you have said that it is down to the courts. To what extent are there children on remand in secure units now?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

So they tend to be convicted children, or those referred by the children’s panel.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

Much of the debate is about resources, including how we should shift them. We have been given figures on the cost of keeping someone in prison, which we are often told is around £40,000 per year. However, there is huge variation among prisons, and the newer prisons are a lot cheaper than the older ones. Do we have data on the average cost of keeping a child in a secure unit? I am just trying to get a feel for the resource issues.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

That is helpful. Gerald, would you like to add to that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

Do you envisage that, in future, children in that position, who have risks associated with them because of the nature of the offence, are likely to be taken to secure units for short periods of time? Is that your understanding of the policy going forward? Is that what is being suggested, as far as you understand it?

12:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

It is just that you do not happen to have any at the moment.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

Right—I understand that.

Another issue that is raised by the bill relates to children being detained in police custody—children being kept in cells. Have you considered that? Are there ever circumstances in which that is just a necessity? What is your view on that issue? Potentially, somebody who is arrested on a Friday could be held until the Monday. Does that happen? Is that something that you are aware of? Is there a different provision for those short-term situations?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Katy Clark

Do you ever have children on remand? Have there been in the past?