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Thank you; that is no problem at all. It seems to be the case with a lot of the discussion on this issue. Karon, do you have anything further to add?

I am sorry, Naomi. Does Sharon Cowan have anything to add on the particular point?

I want to press you on that point. Do you think that people who access a gender recognition certificate do that for the main purpose of accessing single-sex spaces? If that is the case, what you have said may be the case—I am not sure whether the international evidence bears that out, but I can see how it would be the case. However, a number of trans people have said that a gender recognition certificate is not about access to single-sex spaces, and some have even said that they recognise that that could be difficult in some circumstances. In fact, it is about being recognised in the gender that they live in when they go for a job or go to university, or when they die. Do you have evidence to suggest that people are accessing gender recognition certificates for those other purposes?

You yourself called the process of accessing a gender recognition certificate “solemn and serious”. If that is the case, do you think that people will use it for those purposes?

That is helpful.

We heard in previous evidence that, in Denmark, there was a move from self-ID for accessing a gender recognition certificate to self-ID for accessing medicalised processes such as gender identity treatment. Could you imagine that happening here, and has it been considered?

That is also helpful.

My final question probably goes over ground that you have already gone over, but I want to be absolutely clear about this. What impact do you believe getting a gender recognition certificate would have on a person’s ability to receive medical treatment?

I want to reflect briefly on Naomi Cunningham’s point about women wondering whether there is a toilet that they can access safely. Let me say that, as a disabled woman, I experience that, and it is horrible to worry about whether you will be able to access a toilet. We need to get this right. I imagine that trans women and trans men, too, go through a similar experience when they leave the house, in that they wonder whether they will be able to access a toilet or changing room. Do you agree that part of the solution will be to have inclusive and private spaces?

Good morning to the panel. Thank you for the answers that you have given so far and for setting out in your opening statements some pretty clear bits of advice, including on the legal definitions of sex and gender reassignment. I found that particularly helpful, so I thank you for that. I thank you also for the written evidence that you submitted in advance of the meeting, which has been very useful.

I want to explore a bit more the impact of a gender recognition certificate and single-sex spaces. We have spent quite a bit of time talking about the effect of a gender recognition certificate in that regard. For example, Karon Monaghan described the effect of a GRC and what it means for the exclusion of trans people from single-sex spaces. You were quite clear about that, Karon.

As far as I can understand it, what appears to be the issue is the cohort of people who will be able to access a GRC, regardless of the effect of it, if that makes sense. There is a legal effect—it does not appear that that will change as a result of the bill, but more people will have access to that legal route. That is my understanding of what you said; if I have misunderstood it, please correct me.

Could you tell us a bit about who you think the cohort of people will be? We have heard some evidence that it is unlikely to be a group of new trans people, and that it is, in fact, likely to be an existing group of trans people who have not yet considered accessing a gender recognition certificate because of the troubles with accessing one.

My understanding, from the evidence that we have had already, is that those people who do not have a gender recognition certificate are currently accessing single-sex spaces—Women’s Aid and others have given evidence on how they operate those spaces—and that some of the people whom we are talking about do not have gender dysphoria but would still like legal recognition of their sex. Could you talk a bit about the cohort of people, who you think they are and how you think their rights to access single-sex spaces will be changed?

Recognising the fact that there will be people who seek to harm women, as there have been forever, do you think that those people will need a gender recognition certificate to do so?

I am sorry to interrupt but I am conscious of the time and keen to hear from Karon Monaghan. I have one other question. We have heard from people who are trans but who do not have gender dysphoria. What could we do to allow them to access a gender recognition certificate, which is incredibly important for them?