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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 2580 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

That brings me to another point. The issue of blanket netting has been raised with me. If you are blanket netting, you will catch the rabbits, but—exactly as you said—you could have rabbits in a net for 10 or 15 minutes until they are eventually caught. Is that correct?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Barrie Wade, I come back to you for a clarification.

As you all know, I have been involved in hill sheep farming for 30 years, so I know the business intimately. On the point that the convener has just made, I had a very good working relationship with NatureScot when it came to getting a licence to control ravens that were predating on our lambs.

On one of the points that Ariane Burgess made to you about dogs below ground, the only time that I have ever seen that going wrong and dogs coming out hurt has been when two dogs were down one burrow—the back dog pushes the front dog in and there is a fight. That is mishandling by a handler. If the handler is licensed, they will be careful about how they put dogs underground. The example I have just given is the only time that I have ever seen a dog getting into contact with a fox. Is that a fair assessment?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

However, if people are found to be breaking the law, they can have vehicles taken off them. One of the concerns that has been raised is that the provision seems like a targeted attack on a particular group. That is not the case—the provision just brings any group into line with the legislation.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Therefore, the inclusion of the provision relating to horses in the bill does not cause you any concern.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Okay.

I very much take Hugh Dignon’s point about the raven licensing scheme. I had a severe problem with ravens. When the licensing process started, it was clunky and it took too much time to grant a licence, meaning that too much damage was done in the interim. However, NatureScot quickly got its act together and the scheme worked a treat.

That said, the method for controlling ravens is different from that for controlling foxes, and the important period in which to grant a licence for fox control is prior to lambing, not during lambing. We do not need proof that foxes kill lambs—they do. We do not need proof that the damage that they will do is anything other than a reality.

The licensing period should not be for a short, 14-day period but for a season, to allow landowners, farmers and tenants to ensure that they have the numbers under control as much as they can. With the best will in the world, Leia—I do not mean this to be derogatory—lamping foxes is not easy. It takes a lot of skill and time, and you have to know the foxes’ movements.

If we have a licensing scheme in which we can control an animal that we know will predate stock prior to the start of lambing, we will already be halfway there. If we wait until after lambing has started to grant a licence, there will be disruption to lambing fields and parks. I urge you to consider how you will create the licence. It should not last for just 14 days, and it should not be issued during the lambing period but prior to it.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

What, then, would be the purpose of recording numbers?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

It is not, then, to show the number of foxes that would be controlled.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

Thank you. I will move on from there.

Under what circumstances would the Scottish Government consider it appropriate to make use of exceptions in relation to the two-dog rule? What circumstances would constitute “serious damage” to livestock, woodlands or crops, and under what circumstances would it be appropriate to use the exception for “protecting human health” and “preventing the spread of disease”? Basically, why would there be exceptions? What would be the grounds for exceptions? Can you give us a broad outline of what you are trying to achieve there?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

So, if an illegal act took place on the Queen’s land, the person who perpetrated the act, rather than the Queen, would be liable. Is that what that means?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 1 June 2022

Jim Fairlie

If you do not mind, Leia, I want to go back to what you said about flushing. In paragraph 21 of the policy memorandum, Lord Bonomy is quoted as saying:

“in general 20% or more of foxes disturbed by hunts are killed in this way by hounds”.

The policy memorandum also states that Lord Bonomy

“noted that there were legitimate grounds for suspicion that the present arrangements were providing cover for the unlawful use of dogs, contrary to the intention of the 2002 Act, and that such illegality raised concerns about the welfare of foxes and other wildlife.”

It is mentioned that a fox will sometimes be killed before it has been flushed from cover.

I want to get an understanding of what you mean. If the intention is to stop foxes being chased through open countryside, does that not defeat the point? If people are finding a loophole—if foxes are being killed while they are still in cover—there is very little that you can do about that.