Seòmar agus comataidhean

I am perfectly happy to take away specific suggestions from colleagues on which transparency mechanisms would be most workable. I have no ideological or administrative position on whether it should be one way or the other; we can take away your suggestions and work with clerks and members of the committee on what might be the best way of doing things.

As for ministerial working groups, I would say that such matters operate largely at an official level. Things come back from Scotland house in Brussels and one takes a view, in conjunction with legal and external affairs colleagues, on whether proposals are such that alignment measures need to be taken. That has not been escalated to any ministerial working group that I have sat on, because no issue has arisen that has needed a cross-departmental approach. We are making this work by taking matters directly into directorates and areas of ministerial responsibility, and, thus far, nothing that I am aware of has required anything more than that.

Perhaps I can flag up some of the areas in which decisions on alignment have been required, just to give members a sense of the scope of that activity. Issues relating to Transport Scotland and the transposition of EU directives and secondary legislation are being managed through the Scottish statutory instrument process. Members will be aware of on-going issues with regard to single-use plastics and seed potatoes. There are also issues relating to plant health, gene editing and genetically modified crops, UK statistics and district heating—I could go on. Those are all active issues on which the Scottish Government is working to retain alignment. I should also confirm that they are issues on which the Scottish Government has been open to consultation and working with interested parties and those who are closely involved in such matters.

Seed potatoes, for example, are a really big issue in the agricultural sector, now that our access to the European market in that respect has been closed. Our interlocutors in that policy area are very well aware of the Scottish Government’s position, and they are working very closely with us.

We will do our best to continue to work with stakeholders and the committee on the best way of managing that and what format might be used, whether it be a website, sifts or whatever. All of those different models have been tried, and a balance needs to be struck between doing that sort of thing effectively and efficiently and not doing it that way.

That is totally understood. I should also have highlighted the undertaking to ensure that the alignment status of issues that are covered in any proposed legislation in the Scottish Parliament is clearly flagged up. In other words, there is an awareness of how those things figure with regard to the specific matter of legislation.

Notwithstanding the on-going policy engagement that takes place, I see the advantage of speaking to organisations such as COSLA and the SCVO. There are undoubtedly other organisations that we could speak to, and I would welcome any suggestions from colleagues about who might want to take part in such a process. I think that it would make sense for us to take that away and explore with those organisations how we can best work together with that specific aim in mind, and I am keen that we do that.

I understand the point.

That is entirely helpful. The purpose of having a committee session such as this is to gauge what members of this committee and the Scottish Parliament more widely regard as the optimal way to understand processes. Our default position is that the Government wishes Scottish legislation to be de minimis in alignment with that of the European Union. That is our position.

Thank you for putting that on the record. You have the advantage of having been in the previous evidence session; I was not. That is helpful. We go through the written and oral evidence, take away suggestions that have been made, and consider them.

Scottish organisations were represented in Brussels for a long time. They were co-located in the same building, which was an excellent model that ensured that local government and other organisations with an interest in European Union decision making were in the same building with Scottish Government officials. I want us to repeat that model when we become a member state of the European Union, because it is clearly the best one.

On the absence of funding, we do not have enough time in this evidence session to consider the replacement of existing European Union schemes with the anaemic and underpowered versions from the UK Government. Members should consider what has happened in respect of the Erasmus programme and how much less has been spent on the Turing scheme, and how much less has been spent on economic support through the UK compared with the structural funds and other European Union regional funds. That is no doubt another area in which people will, unfortunately, find that they are in a worse-off position than they were in when we were part of the European Union.

We will definitely take that away. I want people to be informed and to have the administrative capacity to inform and influence Government thinking and decision making. Obviously, we live in constrained times. If the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy was sitting here, she would no doubt impress on me the need for us to be financially responsible. We are, of course, financially responsible, but we need to ensure that we have the best governance that we can have.

If there is a feeling that it might not be obvious who made that point, can that be shared with me and officials, please? We will then have a look at any specific proposals that have been made.

Absolutely. It is my view and that of the Government that it is detrimental that we are no longer in the room and able to influence the decisions that are made at European Union level. We seek to change that. You are right that that is a description of the facts. There is a change in circumstances. We must ensure that we are making the best decisions in the best possible way in the circumstances.

Yes, and that is a good example. There is an example in relation to plant health where there has been a divergence, but it has been a divergence upwards. What is the Scottish Government’s policy objective in relation to the European Union? It is that we remain aligned as best we can, using the different ways that we have outlined. However, when things come along on which we want to have enhanced standards, that is exactly what we have been doing.

I understand that people want to be assured that we do not want a diminution of standards, and I am delighted that we are hearing that from Conservative members, too. If there has been a divergence, we have sought to have higher standards. I will probably not pronounce this properly, but one area that has been flagged up to me is about Xylella. Is that correct?

Indeed.

I am sure that Mr Russell will be delighted that he is in your thoughts. You obviously have the advantage of having been involved in the process at a time that I was not. I deal with the ball as it is at my feet. The committee will know that the power is there in legislation for it to be used, and it is the Scottish Government’s intention to do so, but not within the current reporting period.

I will draw your attention to an issue that you might want to come back to in order to understand how the decisions are made. The recast drinking water directive came into force on 12 January 2021, following formal adoption by the European Parliament on 16 December 2020. There is a two-year transposition window. The Water (Scotland) Act 1980 provides for regulations to be made insofar as they relate to standards that must be met by water that is for human consumption. However, the recast directive introduces a much wider set of requirements, such as those relating to risk assessments of catchments, supply systems, internal plumbing systems and so on.

I flag that up to the committee as an area in which we are considering using the powers. When Government ministers have said that it is important that they have that legal club in the metaphorical bag to be used in certain circumstances but have not yet used it, the question, of course, is why they needed the power in the first place. The answer is exactly for circumstances such as those.

I have looked closely at the whole area, and it strikes me that, because the range of ways in which that Government can legislate and introduce regulations is very broad, we should seek to use the most sensible way of doing that—Mr Cameron, as a lawyer, will know that. Being pragmatic, Government has sought to make sure that it does that in the most appropriate way. In short, the process was proposed for a good reason, is there for a good reason and will be used for a good reason, but has not been used yet. Other methods have been used to deliver the Scottish Government’s intent of retaining alignment with the European Union.